The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn

[Findegil]

My appologise for not coming back to this further, but I had a hard time keeping track of the other discussions.

NA-EX-45.3: Aiwendil wrote:

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here by:

Well, I see that this is confusing. I left out the change refered to and redirected my comment. So you are right Aiwendil there is nothing added at position NA-EX-45.2. But I did add it under NA-EX-45.3. But when I looked for that myself I discovered that I had not posted that part by mistake, sorry. So here it goes:

'Follow me, NA-RG-15 {Flinding}[friend], __ from the forest cursed!
Let us haste to his help, __ to Hell if need be {1025}
or to death by the darts __ of the dread Glamhoth!':
and Beleg bounded __ from the bracken madly, 160
like a deer driven __ by dogs baying
from his hiding in the hills __ and hollow places;
and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] followed __ fearful after him {1030}
neath the yawning gate, __ through yew-thickets,
through bogs and bents __ and bushes shrunken, 165
till they reached the rocks __ and the riven moorlands
and friendless fells __ falling darkly
to the dusty dunes __ of {Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith]. {1035}
In a cup outcarven __ on the cold hillside,
whose broken brink __ was bleakly fringed 170
with bended bushes __ bowed in anguish
from the North-wind's knife, __ beneath them far
the feasting camp __ of their foes was laid; {1040}
the fiery flare __ of fuming torches,
and black bodies __ in the blaze they saw 175
crossing countlessly, __ and cries they heard
and the hollow howling __ of hungry wolves.
NA-EX-45.3<Lay {and}And countless captives __ in that camp were chained, {850}
and {Elfin}[Elven] maids __ their anguish mourning. 180
put one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visaged, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
Full length he lay __ and lashed to pickets {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted 185
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king 190 -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak 195
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness; 200

NA-EX-45.2: I am okay with your suggestion, adding only a fullstop after '... on this'.

NA-EX-47.6: Okay we leave the text like it was in the Lay. But my I probably very carefully suggest the unthinkable? =====> a FOOTNOTE

NA-EX-56.6: You are, the could not wandering occupations for him between the flight from Dorthonion and the Nirnaeth.

NA-EX-57.1: I do not fight for that add. It was a just the only additional information that my search through all the descriptions of that battle brought up, so I sought I should at least offer it. I will skip it.

About the editorial bridges leading into the fragments of the Lay: I will go through them one after the other, but for know I have only time for one:
NA-EX-37.2b: Here the bridge is not needed. We will do without.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Well, I see that this is confusing. I left out the change refered to and redirected my comment. So you are right Aiwendil there is nothing added at position NA-EX-45.2. But I did add it under NA-EX-45.3.

Ah, that makes more sense. This certainly looks like the right place to put the passage if it is to be kept. I still have a slight reservation - in the original version, of course, Gwindor is describing the camp from within (and is presumably reasonably close to Turin). In our version, Beleg and Gwindor are still some distance away from the camp (not near enough to be noticed by the wolves, at least). So are they close enough to see Turin so clearly, 'stern-visaged, strong, and in stature tall' or to hear his cries?

NA-EX-45.2: I think there was a typo in my suggestion. I meant:

If this were so, his sole hope lay in returning to the Ford of Brithiach, and then going north to Tol Sirion. {But scarcely had he determind on this than they heard the noise of a great host approaching through the forest from the south;}> NA-EX-45.2 <Lay
{ __ Their spoils were piled,
...
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.'}

In eager anger __ then up sprang Beleg,

In other words, delete the whole sentence 'But scarcely . . .' and move right into the Lay after describing his intention to return to the Brithiach.

NA-EX-47.6: A footnote?! Blasphemy of blasphemies!

Actually, I think this is a good idea in this case. If it were prose, of course, there would be no reason to put in a footnote what could easily be added into the main text, but in verse things are different. And of course unlike the infamous Ainulindale footnote proposal, there are no thorny Aelfwine/Pengolodh issues here!

[Findegil]

NA-EX-45.2: That is okay for me.

NA-EX-45.3: They heard cries before so why not that of Túrin?
The face is another matter. But it brought up a news idea:

and black bodies __ in the blaze they saw 175
crossing countlessly, __ and cries they heard
and the hollow howling __ of hungry wolves.
NA-EX-45.3<Lay {and}And countless captives __ in that camp were chained, {850}
and {Elfin}[Elven] maids __ their anguish mourning. 180
but one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-{visaged}[visored], strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
NA-EX-46b <GA; Commentary §275 {the dragon-helm - or was it set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him}/On his head he __ haughtily wore the Dragon;
tauntingly helmed they __ tried him with knives./> 185
NA-TI-23b <Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and tied to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk,}/{Full length}/Tied/ he lay/ to/ __ {and lashed to pickets}/a trunk of a tree/ {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter 190
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog 195
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine 200
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness;

Thus we could here give the fact that Túrin wore the Dragon-Helm and avoid on brake in the alliterativ text by prose. Since it might be hard to read I give a shorter extract in clean text here:

but one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
On his head he __ haughtily wore the Dragon;
tauntingly helmed they __ tried him with knives. 185
Tied he lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.

NA-EX-47.6: If nobody speaks against it a footnote it will be.

Back to editorial bridges:
NA-EX-44c:

Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband NA-EX-41.15{;}. <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed. With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach}.
><Lay NA-EX-44c{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
Unmatched among Men, __ or magic-wielding
Elves, or hunters __ of the Orc-kindred,
or beasts of prey __ for blood pining,
was his craft and cunning, __ that cold and dead 10
an unseen slot __ could scent o'er stone, {745}
foot-prints could find __ on forest pathways
that lightly on the leaves __ were laid in moons
long waned, and washed __ by windy rains.
The grim Glamhoth's __ goblin armies 15
go cunning-footed, __ but his craft failed not {750}
to tread their trail, __ till the lands were darkened,
and the light was lost __ in lands unknown.>
And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward{; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.
NA-EX-44.1 <CoH He{ set out then with little hope to try to find the trail of the Orcs, and he} came upon their tracks near the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. There they divided, some passing along the eaves of the Forest of Brethil towards the Ford of Brithiach, while others turned away westwards; and it seemed plain to Beleg that he must follow those that went direct with greatest speed to Angband, making for the Pass of Anach.

I rearanged the text slightly after the removal of Andróg survival, and think now we can go with a bridge.

NA-EX-44.2; NA-EX-45: Here also the bridges can go.

NA-EX-47 See above.

NA-EX-48b: Here I would slightly rearange:

NA-EX-48b <CoH And now they arose, and departing from Eithel Ivrin they journeyed southward along the banks of Narog{, until they were taken by scouts of the Elves and brought as prisoners to the hidden stronghold.
Thus did Túrin come to Nargothrond.}
<Lay Where Narog's torrent __ gnashed and spouted

NA-EX-49: Here the bridge also superfical.

NA-EX-52 had no bridge right from the start.

NA-EX-55: The bridge can go, even so I find it usefull.

On last pice remeans: But it is not in the Narn. It is the pice we took in in the last chapter of Beren and Lúthien BL-EX-19. While reading this I got the same feeling I had have before: Where exactly does this belong? Who is the whisperer and to whom does he whisper? Where it stand know it needs the bridge but probably when we really discover where it belongs it can go without? If I have any clearer idea about that I will post the according thread.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

NA-EX-45.3: A nice idea, but I have to say it looks like too much creative writing is required. We're already moving back and forth between prose and verse quite a bit, so I don't think the short prose insertion is a problem.

NA-EX-44c: It occurs to me that if we omit the verse additions to the 'Turin's Fostering' section, then this will be the first switch in the chapter (I think). So perhaps it would make sense to keep the bridge here at least.

Edit: I just realized there is an earlier verse excerpt at NA-EX-37.2b, so probably we should keep the bridge there but eliminate it here.

NA-EX-44.2: Perhaps eliminating the bridge but changing the punctuation to a colon might be good, since the verse section starts with a description of Taur-nu-Fuin:

NA-EX-44.2 Therefore he journeyed on through Dimbar, and up to the Pass of Anach in Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and so to the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Night, a region of dread and dark enchantment, of wandering and despair{.}[:]
<Lay Never-dawning night __ was netted clinging
in the black branches __ of the beetling trees;

NA-EX-47: As noted above, I think we should keep the prose insertion here. But reading it again something seems strange: we first say that they 'cut the bonds that held him' but immediately we say 'no blade would bite on the bonds he wore'. Clearly, what the first clause should say is that they tried to cut his bonds. I suggest:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness} NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. But though Beleg and Gwindor would cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<[b]editorial bridge[b/] the Lay tells:

><Lay{No}no blade would bite on the bonds he wore,

NA-EX-55: If you find this bridge useful, I don't suppose there's any pressing reason not to use it.

On BL-EX-19: I was actually going to suggest that once we're satisfied with the Narn we briefly revisit the already completed chapters. Reading through the finished texts for them I found a few issues, mainly very small things. I suggest we look at BL-EX-19 at that time.

[Aiwendil]

Another thought before I forget it - I wonder whether perhaps we should try somehow to incorporate the two short 'independent poems' in alliterative verse that Tolkien developed from passages in the Lay and which are given at the end of the chapter in III.

One of them, untitled, is based on part of Gwindor's speech about the river Sirion at Eithel Ivrin, lines 1554-1570 in the Lay. I'm almost tempted to suggest that it was in fact a replacement passage for those lines. We may want to consider using it as such.

The other is 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond', developed from lines 2082-2113. This is a bit different, since it not only expands on the passage in the Lay but also leaves out the narrative portions. So it would seem there's no way for us to incorporate it; at least we can't simply replace the corresponding section of the Lay with it. This is a shame as 'Winter Comes to Nargothrond' is in my opinion one of Tolkien's finest pieces of verse, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

While I have no objections to NA-EX-46b as such, I dislike the composition and flow of the additional verses. I'll see if I can't think up a better form for them, if you don't object.

[Arvegil145]

Doors there darkly __ dim gigantic
were hewn in the hillside; __ huge their timbers,
and their posts and lintels __ of ponderous stone. {1830}
NA-EX-48.1 <CoH Túrin in Nargothrond>
They were shut unshakeable. __ Then shrilled a trumpet 105
as a phantom fanfare __ faintly winding

I find that chapter break pretty awkward.

Maybe it would be better at this point:

... „I have not seen him,“ said Gwindor. „But rumour of him runs through Angband that he still defies Morgoth; and Morgoth has laid a curse upon him and all his kin.“
„That I do believe,“ said Túrin.
Of their southward journey the Lay tells:

Túrin in Nargothrond

Where Narog's torrent gnashed and spouted
down his stream bestrewn with stone and boulder,
...

My reason is that it does not interrupt the poem.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Thus we could here give the fact that Túrin wore the Dragon-Helm and avoid on brake in the alliterativ text by prose. Since it might be hard to read I give a shorter extract in clean text here:

Respectfully
Findegil

I tried my hand at a replacement passage, and got this:

But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-{visaged}[visored], strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
NA-EX-46b <GA; Commentary §275 {the dragon-helm - or was it set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him}/The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe.
And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,
Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn./> 190
NA-TI-23b <Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and tied to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk,}/{Full length}/Tied/ the man lay/ to/ __ {and lashed to pickets}/a trunk of a tree/ {855}
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.
Then he called, as clear __ as cry of hunter 195
that hails his hounds __ in hollow places, {860}
on the name renowned __ of that noblest king -
but men unmindful __ remember him little -
Húrin Thalion, __ who Erithámrod hight,
the Unbending, __ for Orc and Balrog 200
and Morgoth's might __ on the mountain yet {865}
he defies fearless, __ on a fangéd peak
of thunder-riven __ Thangorodrim.{'}>

Then a moon mounted __ o'er the mists riding, {1045}
and the keen radiance __ of the cold moonshine 205
the shadows sharpened __ in the sheer hollows,
and slashed the slopes __ with slanting blackness;

It's a bit longer than yours, so it may require too much intervention into the text, but I prefer its flow. Here it is in plain text:

But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe.
And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,
Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn. 190
Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.

(Oh, and the "but" at the beginning of the first line (181) should be capitalized like it was in Tolkien's version: I already changed it in my post.)

[Aiwendil]

Your suggested lines are quite good, but I'm afraid I still think it's too great a liberty for us to take. I still prefer to keep the prose passage.

[Findegil]

I must say that I disagree with you Aiwendil. The Lay is in this part for sure the most detailed text we have. That makes in natrually to our basic text. From that we have two tasks: 1. we have to bring the text to the cannon version of the story line in generall and in detail and 2. we have to add details otherwise lost if possible. A compareable situation we have had in the Lay of Leithian. We were in the lucky situation that we only found one very small passages at the departure of Beren and Felagund from Nargothrond, were we had to actually produce ryming lines. But we did aviod breaking the poem by prose inserts and we did so by propose. Here prose inserts are more acceptable here, that is true, because we already jump backward and forward between prose and poem.
But in this case we would aviod a break between a 290 line part of poem and a 560 line part. And the prose froming that break is only 5 lines of which 1 1/2 is an anyway an artifical expansion of an note from the author.

Aran, I like your lines, so I have to agree to Aiwendil that you might have used a bit to much freedom with the text. At least I would aviod the jump back to Beleg as observer. The two lines 'And seeing this heaume, __ with sight of elves,/Beleg the bowman __ did burn with cold wrath:' could be skipt with an semikolon in the line above.
And so I know that it is alway easy to critisise, I still have to say that 'casque' is hard to bear. It is too french.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I must admit, I am torn here. I agree with Aiwendil that this seems too much of a textual liberty, but I also agree that when the main text is poetry we should edit with poetry.

Findegil suggested altering the lines to:

But one they watched, __ warded sleepless,
was stern-visored, strong, __ and in stature tall
as are Hithlum's men __ of the misty hills.
The cruel Orc-captain __ a casque did hale
of mighty work, __ and mocking he set 185
that helm on the head __ of his hapless foe:
'twas Hador's helm, __ high and lofty,
the tormenting Orcs __ did tauntingly scorn.
Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree
in baleful bonds, __ yet bold-hearted 190
his mouth no mercy __ of Morgoth sued,
but defied his foes. __ Foully they smote him.

I can accept that. Aiwendil probably still wishes no retention at all, however, and I'm also fine with keeping a prose insert, though the form might be unpleasing.


As an aside, I just noticed that the line "Tied the man lay to __ a trunk of a tree" doesn't seem to alliterate properly. We should try and find a suitable fix for it.

[Findegil]

To the same effect as in the other part of the Narn I would like to reoppen a dsicussion about NA-EX-57.1:

Then the warriors of Nargothrond went forth, and tall and terrible on that day looked Túrin, and the heart of the host was upheld, as he rode on the right hand of Orodreth. NA-EX-57 <GA Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm.> But greater far was the host of Morgoth than any scouts had told, NA-EX-57.1 <LT an army of Orcs {descended upon them}, and wolves, and Orcs mounted upon wolves;> and none but Túrin defended by {his dwarf-mask}[the Dragon-helm] could withstand the approach of Glaurung.

Earlier discussion were few only, and therefore I will summarize them here:
Findegil:

I searched for some stuff to add to the battle and this was all that came up.

Aiwendil:

I’m hesitant to introduce such a small detail. If LT provided substantial information that would be one thing, but to break a sentence Tolkien wrote just to add (essentially) that the host contained wolves seems to me unnecessary.

Findegil:

I do not fight for that add. It was a just the only additional information that my search through all the descriptions of that battle brought up, so I sought I should at least offer it. I will skip it.

Thinking now farther about it, I think that we do not have wolves to often in fights in the First Age. And Wolf-riders I do not remember at all in any other battle in the First Age (this might be bad memory on my part). With that and the fact that the battle discription is laking detail and that it probably is still an compilation by Christopher Tolkien, I think we should give that information.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Ekimeniso]

I don’t know if it’s necessarily a contradiction, but in CoH it was said (and inserted, but as far as I see through the system atm without a number?) that before Gwindor fled from the mines he

Originally Posted by CoH

received a small sword from one who worked in the forges,

implying that the sword was wrought there, while later, when Beleg and Gwindor rescue Túrin, it says in the lay

Originally Posted by Lay

NA-EX-47 <Lay NA-RG-20{Flinding}[Gwindor] felt for the forged knife
of {dwarfen}[dwarven] steel, ... wrought by wrights in the realms of the East,
in black Belegost, by the bearded Dwarves
of troth unmindful; it betrayed him now>

I find it questionable that Gwindor would have received another knife during his flight. Of course that's speculation.
I also find the characterisation of the Enfeng of Belegost as "of troth unmindful" questionable in light of the later conceptions.

[Findegil]

About the dagger:
Good catch! We could of course construct a story to discusse the contradiction away, but cannonical safty would lead to the elimination of the hole passage in the Lay.
The implication in CoH is clearly that the short sword that Gwindor got was forged in Angband. But it is not made explicit. Therefore we could assume that the short sword was the dagger or knife and that it was part of the spiols of war and only for repiar in the forge of Angband.

I also find the characterisation of the Enfeng of Belegost as "of troth unmindful" questionable in light of the later conceptions.

For me 'of troth unmindful' does not characterise the Dwarves of Belegost in general but the act of forging the knife. It does remind me of the scene when Beleg recives Anglachel and is warned by Melian, that the sword would be useable aginst him. This warning makes little sense in our word. Since a sword can be used by everyone against everyone, nobody would need such a warning. Thus we must assume that thinks were different in that point, at least for elvish blades in Middle-Earth. That means a smith of elvish craftsmanship, mindful of troth, could creat a sword that would be unusable aginst its master. Now what the Lay does tell us, is that the Dwarves did not equip the dagger with this special feature. I agree that implicit it is suggested that they did it by propose, not by the lake of ability. But still you might have good reasons not to equip a sword with that feature, especially if it is a sword for trading.

Respecfuly
Findegil