General changes in TftE - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 04-17-2009, 04:13 AM

Okay, so Ereinion it seems to be. But do we have a Quenya equivalent? Or would we take Aratanáro fro that still? Of course it is not absolutly necessary for him to have a Quenya name, and it not necessary for us to have give one.

Respectfully
Findegil

Aiwendil · 04-17-2009, 11:00 AM

I think 'Rodnor' is just the Sindarin translation of 'Artanaro', 'high flame' or 'flame commander'. Cf. Feanaro -> Feanor and Findarato, Angarato -> Finrod, Angrod. So I suppose that if 'Rodnor' was superceded by 'Ereinion' then 'Artanaro' is obselete as well.

Aran e-Godhellim · 04-17-2009, 08:38 PM

That is correct. The only other possibility is that his name was "Artanaro [translated Rodnor] (his father-name) Ereinion (his mother name) Gil-galad (an epesse)."

Araniondo (or something to that effect) would probably be Quenya for Ereinion. My Quenya studies are slightly less fresh in my mind than my Sindarin ones, so you might want to check that before taking my word for it.

Findegil · 04-18-2009, 01:43 AM

I personally would jump at this last idea that Atanaro was his father-name natrually given in Quenya which would have yielded Rodnor in Sindarin. But Ereinion was his mother-name given in Sindarin, since his mother was a Sinda of Dorthonion. Later he got the epesse Gil-galad (natrually in Sindarin, since that was the dayly speech of the time).

Respectfully
Findegil

Aran e-Godhellim · 06-03-2009, 07:07 PM

I realized there's another change we didn't note: Bauglir < Baugron as per a note to the later versions of the Valaquenta.

Aiwendil · 06-04-2009, 10:15 AM

Good catch; however, there is an occurrence of 'Bauglir' in the first part of the Narn, and we know that this cannot have been an editorial change by CRT from 'Baugron' because he says in X that 'Baugron' occurs nowhere else. Vq 2 and the first portions of the 'Narn' both date from the late 1950s, so it's difficult to say which is the later occurrence.

This is a somewhat ambiguous case, but my inclination is to take 'Bauglir' as the more conservative choice, since 'Baugron' occurs only once and may have been a mere passing idea. Better, in my view, to be conservative and not accept a late name change than to inadvertantly accept a rejected one.

Aran e-Godhellim · 06-04-2009, 10:53 AM

I'm not so sure. I think this alteration is not a "change," per se, but rather an update. "Bauglir" is a Gnomish name; there is no Sindarin ending "-lir." "Baugron," however, matches then Sindarin masculine ending seen in Sauron and Daeron, from older "-ondo."

I think the Bauglir < Baugron note came from a time where the Professor was updating old names to match the new styles, but he later forgot it and wrote the form he was used to writing. In fact, isn't the Valaquenta the same document which saw the change Tavros < Tauron, which is a change of the same form?

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04-17-2009, 04:13 AM	#1
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Okay, so Ereinion it seems to be. But do we have a Quenya equivalent? Or would we take Aratanáro fro that still? Of course it is not absolutly necessary for him to have a Quenya name, and it not necessary for us to have give one. Respectfully Findegil

04-17-2009, 11:00 AM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I think 'Rodnor' is just the Sindarin translation of 'Artanaro', 'high flame' or 'flame commander'. Cf. Feanaro -> Feanor and Findarato, Angarato -> Finrod, Angrod. So I suppose that if 'Rodnor' was superceded by 'Ereinion' then 'Artanaro' is obselete as well.

04-17-2009, 08:38 PM	#3
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	That is correct. The only other possibility is that his name was "Artanaro [translated *Rodnor] (his father-name) Ereinion* (his mother name) Gil-galad (an epesse)." Araniondo (or something to that effect) would probably be Quenya for Ereinion. My Quenya studies are slightly less fresh in my mind than my Sindarin ones, so you might want to check that before taking my word for it.

04-18-2009, 01:43 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	I personally would jump at this last idea that Atanaro was his father-name natrually given in Quenya which would have yielded Rodnor in Sindarin. But Ereinion was his mother-name given in Sindarin, since his mother was a Sinda of Dorthonion. Later he got the epesse Gil-galad (natrually in Sindarin, since that was the dayly speech of the time). Respectfully Findegil

06-03-2009, 07:07 PM	#5
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	I realized there's another change we didn't note: Bauglir < Baugron as per a note to the later versions of the Valaquenta.

06-04-2009, 10:15 AM	#6
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Good catch; however, there is an occurrence of 'Bauglir' in the first part of the Narn, and we know that this cannot have been an editorial change by CRT from 'Baugron' because he says in X that 'Baugron' occurs nowhere else. Vq 2 and the first portions of the 'Narn' both date from the late 1950s, so it's difficult to say which is the later occurrence. This is a somewhat ambiguous case, but my inclination is to take 'Bauglir' as the more conservative choice, since 'Baugron' occurs only once and may have been a mere passing idea. Better, in my view, to be conservative and not accept a late name change than to inadvertantly accept a rejected one.

06-04-2009, 10:53 AM	#7
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	I'm not so sure. I think this alteration is not a "change," per se, but rather an update. "Bauglir" is a Gnomish name; there is no Sindarin ending "-lir." "Baugron," however, matches then Sindarin masculine ending seen in Sauron and Daeron, from older "-ondo." I think the Bauglir < Baugron note came from a time where the Professor was updating old names to match the new styles, but he later forgot it and wrote the form he was used to writing. In fact, isn't the Valaquenta the same document which saw the change Tavros < Tauron, which is a change of the same form?