Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

Yes, I was thinking this as well. The reason why Arwen rejects the possibility is because she made the choice to be mortal by marrying Aragorn.

As far as we know, Elladan and Elrohir didn't decide to marry mortals, so there was never any action on their part to indicate that they had decided to become Men - unless not leaving with Elrond is definitely the only requirement for them to become mortal.

Arwen had a reason for choosing to stay behind: Aragorn. She couldn't marry Aragorn and take him back to the Undying Lands, so she had to stay. What incentive could Elladan and Elrohir have had to stay behind if it automatically made them mortal?

[Galin]

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

[Galin]

Tolkien's letter seems to imply that the Sons hadn't made up their minds yet, but they arguably would have also been aware (being born in TA 130) that by Aragorn's day the 'choice must soon' be laid upon them -- referring to the time of Elrond's abiding.

Granted the Elvish perspective of years is different. But their Mother had already sailed, their sister chosen mortality, and 'now' their father was soon to sail -- but still no choice? If they were leaning towards immortality one would have thought this was a good time to leave Middle-earth, with their father.

Of course I'm not claiming that there is only one interpretation. One could argue the text could well mean 'with him' in the sense of choose immortality as he did, though at some later time. Letter 153 could well be the 'answer' despite what (I think) is suggested by other description.

I don't think any thread has ever solved this issue, and perhaps Tolkien would have wanted it that way.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However the "long" Tale of Years, TY4, although submitted to A&U, turned out not to be the final word- JRRT made many, many alterations between that version and the historiy printed as Appendices A and B.

I think that this is one of those cases where we have insufficient data, and where quite likely Tolkien himself couldn't make up his mind- like the revised Law of Succession in Numenor. T also had a characteristic habit when referring to something already described of expressing himself elliptically or deceptively categorically- leading in extreme cases to things like the Great Balrog Wings Flame War, or in lesser cases to the Treebeard-or-Bombadil-Eldest affair, or the all-Elves-had-dark-hair shibboleth.

Personally I think E&E eventually sailed West, because of their mother. That would mean that they could up to a point delay their choice-- but I doubt Tolkien really ever thought the question through.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Galin

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Yes, there WAS a ship that "would bear her hence", because after Aragorn died Legolas built one. And it's possible that Cirdan was still living at the Grey Havens at that time.

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

[Ivriniel]

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North. I suspect they took wives who were of the Dunedain and fortified the longevity of the Numenereans in Exile in the Fourth Age.

Dior, as I remember, was also not someone who had the life of the Eldar. Luthien chose a mortal life, which is a slight variation on the way the mythology puts the Choice of the Peredhil (Half Elven). Dior being Luthien's and Beren's son cannot claim an immortal life in that context. However, I also recall that Luthien's end was prior to the War of Wrath at the end of the first age. The Choice of the Peredhil was put together by the Valar, formerly, after Earendil in Vingilot made it into the Uttermost West and pleaded with the Valar to render aid. Earendil's plea was successful, but something else came of it, which was his immortality, which to that point, had no precedent (again, Luthien perished, having relinquished her heritage, somehow). I also seem to remember that Earendil was actually somewhat reluctant to take on the Life of the Eldar, but did so for Elwing's sake and by her plea to her husband. He certainly has a very boring life, I would say, rising day after day, in Vingilot, as the Evenstar, and as he must until the fulfilment of the Second Prophesy when Melkor returns through the Doors of Night. I'm not sure I would want to live that way!

Cheers
Ivriniel

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, there is a particular reference made to Elrond's children--beyond Arwen--as the Sons of the Half Elven. Elrond, I think himself, states that there is a requirement that his children actually be with him for their journey in the West, in order for them to have the Life of the Eldar.

Elladan and Elrohir did not take the Western Road with their father, and I understand that to mean that they made the choice to live a mortal life. They died in Middle Earth, and they had close ties to the Rangers of the North.

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

And let's say we are correct... for sake of argument

As far I recall Tolkien's refence to the Sons of Elrond staying behind [after Elrond sailed] was left out when the Epilogue to The Lord of the Rings was dropped, but JRRT went on to add two references to this for the second, revised Edition...

... but again if we are correct that this was the 'intended' interpretation, what would Tolkien himself think, I wonder, if he knew how much a letter of his [something he not only did not imagine would become public knowledge, but also would be so easily found on something called the world wide web] was arguably influencing the variant interpretation that the choice of the Sons of Elrond could be extended after Elrond sailed.

Well who can say, but I don't think Tolkien liked spiders in any case.

Apologies for the bad web 'joke'. I wove it in nicely though

The problem I have with the twins remaining is that ever time an Elf/Halfelven/Man has changed their fate it has been for a great and high destiny. It is not something, which happens on a whim. I know that technically the children of Elrond were not changing their fate, but they had lived a long time with the life of the Eldar.

I don't see the Sons of Elrond changing the state they had been living unless it was for a great and history changing event.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

By the way -- and I probably said so in this thread before but who can remember and I'm too lazy today to read it all again -- I agree. Elrond did not state this specifically in my opinion, but I agree that that is what he means. That is, I think it's the more natural interpretation of the description within The Lord of the Rings.

Hey there Galin, I went back to the citation to quote what Elrond said. This was in a discussion between Aragorn and Elrond, after Elrond finds out that Aragorn had become besotted by Arwen. Elrond had been saying that Aragorn reached too high, and beyond himself, unless it was the case that he managed to reunite Arnor and Gondor and restore the Kingship.

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses." p. 1059, but I don't know what publication version. It's an online pdf here

This comment by Elrond seems to be saying that Elrond's kids' fates were bound to their father's, or that they needed to depart with him to Valinor to retain the life of the Eldar.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I take Círdan's words (from the Silmarillion) about staying until the "last ship" sailed to mean he was waiting for the passing of the Three, and would accompany them to the West. He specifically said to Gandalf after that "Then I shall await thee", having just given to him Narya.

And yet I remember clearly that somewhere in the Appendices a commentary (I think by Merry, written during the early period of the 4th Age) states of Cirdan : " .... and some say he dwells there still", meaning the Havens.

[Galin]

There's an interesting note from H&S in entry...

'She was not yet weary of her days - In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963, Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to men ... is bitter to receive.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Ring's Reader's Companion

[Mithadan]

This is a question with no easy resolution. From the references quoted above it seems clear that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were granted the choice to be numbered among the Eldar or Men. The portions of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen quoted by Galin mean to me simply that they may choose to be mortal and remain in Middle Earth until they die or they may choose to take ship into the West. I do not think Elrond's departure has much to do with it. Arwen's comment 'that choice is long over' means only that she had already made her choice and had to live and die with it.

Elladan and Elrohir's fate is a matter of intriguing speculation. They loved Men enough to fight in Gondor with Aragorn, yet they loved their parents as well. Having risked all to enter Moria to save their mother, I wonder if it would have been too difficult for them to choose to stay in Middle Earth and never see her again.

There appears to be another potential contradiction that is not addressed in this thread to this point. The Akallabeth relates that the "Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny." Elrond chooses to be an Elf and Elros chooses to be a Man. This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

This is an excellent question.

I don't really have much of an answer for it, but one thing that comes to mind is maybe it has something to do with the Elven/Valar ultimate envying of Men in their ability to escape the Circles of the World. The Valar maybe persisted in giving the children of Elrond the choice because of their own (the Valar's) possibly growing desire to escape.

[Galin]

Here's my theory anyway. And if it doesn't work I might try to think up another

It's based on some text from Quenta Silmarillion (section 9, The Conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings), in which it is said:

'(...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

This is from the version of QS dated mid to late 1930s. If this idea is still in play at least (and I'm not sure that it is), Arwen and her brothers were arguably mortal by default.

This might explain why the choice was extended to Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir -- one parent had chosen the fate of Elves, the other was an Elf, and without being granted other doom their children would, due to still having some measure of mortal blood, be automatically sundered from their parents. This would be a great grief as we know, and a sundering beyond death.

If this holds water, would it not seem fair to someone who might choose an Elvish fate that his children not be automatically mortal? I mean it would arguably tip the scales of the choice before it was made, as Elrond would at least want the hope that his children could pass with him Over Sea.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Once Elros had made his mind up to become mortal, his choice was binding upon his descendants. So presumably Elrond's choice should have been binding upon HIS descendants.

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien). So it's logical to assume that Elrond's descendants, being in effect Elves, could renounce immortality or sail to the West.

I think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien)

But Luthien was a very, very special case, a unique case: one where Mandos and Manwe made an exception to 'the Rules' only with Eru's express permission.