General changes in TftE

[Aiwendil]

I think that solution is probably the best. One question we should at least consider is whether to note that they were companions of Earendil at their appearance in 'Turin' or their appearance in 'Tuor'. I suppose that since the idea appears in a Narn plot synopsis, it makes sense to go with the former, although that might be a little odd because their last appearance will be in 'Tuor' (even though it occurs earlier chronologically).

[Findegil]

I thought about how to introduce the note, and that is what came of it:

Then {Gelmir}[Faramir] and Arminas departed, and went back to the South: but despite Túrin's taunts they would gladly have awaited battle beside their kin, and they went only because Círdan had bidden them under the command of Ulmo to bring back word to him of Nargothrond and of the speeding of their errand there. And NA-EX-56.65 <WH; Note 11 Faramir and Arminas were later Earendil's companions on voyage.> Orodreth was much troubled by the words of the messengers; but all the more fell became the mood of Túrin, and he would by no means listen to their counsels, and least of all would he suffer the great bridge to be cast down. For so much at least of the words of Ulmo were read aright.

I adopted Faramir for this extract because I think the discussion is leaning to this.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

What about {Lalaith}[Lalaeth] based on the genealogical tables associated with LQ2? These are from December 1959, which I'm fairly sure is later than the 'Narn' (though I can't find any definitive statement on when the early portions of the 'Narn' were written).

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, the ai<ae shift is pretty common in Sindarin. I'd say that change is likely.


Oh, and thank you, Aiwendil!

EDIT: "Thoron Sîr" should probably be altered to "Sîr Thoron" (as in "Aran Moria").

[Aiwendil]

Indeed, as Jallanite (I think) noted so long ago:

{Thorn Sir}[Thoron Sîr] This updates the two elements for the name from Gnomish to their QS77 and LR Sindarin forms, but I’m not sure the syntax of this later name is valid.

Certainly it seems that if the meaning is to be 'River of (the) Eagle' then it would have to be 'Sîr Thoron'. But it seems to me rather that 'eagle' is being used adjectivally: 'Eagle River'. But I don't know if that kind of noun-noun construction is used in later Sindarin.

On another note: Having thought about it some more, I now think it quite probable that the plot-synopsis in which 'Faramir' occurs is later than the texts that use 'Gelmir' and that Tolkien changed the name precisely to avoid the repetition of the name. Earlier I had supposed that the fact that CT used 'Gelmir' in UT suggested he thought that was the final form adopted in the Narn. However, it now occurs to me that he likely used 'Gelmir' so as to agree with the '77. So I think we're agreed on {Gelmir}[Faramir] now.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, adjectives in Sindarin (outside of compounds) are also typically after their noun, so the construction should still change.

[Aiwendil]

Good point! Okay, I suppose that unless we can find a counter-example showing that the syntax is acceptable, we should change {Thorn Sir}[Sîr Thoron].

[Findegil]

Gondowe, this thraed is a bit diffrent from other: In general a change needs an agreement of the hole group. Somtimes unisono as seldom as possible by voting. In such questions as mostly collected here it is more a kind of silence agreement to what an expert decided or (since we have the luck in the moment that more than one linguistic expert is activ) two experts found by discussion. Hotly debatable subjects will be discussed in seperate threads.


Lalaith => Lalaeth: Seems fairly save.

Thoron Sir => Sîr Thoron: Aiwendil and Aran agreed, so it seems done.

Gelmir [the companien of Arminas] => Faramir: Done after Aiwendil agreed.

About the note making Faramir and Arminas companions of Earendil: We will take up the note into the text of the Narn, but we not change any names in The Voyage of Earendil simply because Faramir and Arminas could have been companions of Earendils earlier voyages and not the last one.

Gil-galad's parantag is: Gil-galad son of Orodreth son of Angrod son of Finarfin.
Haldir son of Orodreth is not included in our version. In our oppinion Haldir son of Orodreth was the literary anchester of Handir Lord of Brethil.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the note making Faramir and Arminas companions of Earendil: We will take up the note into the text of the Narn, but we not change any names in The Voyage of Earendil simply because Faramir and Arminas could have been companions of Earendils earlier voyages and not the last one.

Gil-galad's parantag is: Gil-galad son of Orodreth son of Angrod son of Finarfin.
Haldir son of Orodreth is not included in our version. In our oppinion Haldir son of Orodreth was the literary anchester of Handir Lord of Brethil.

Ok Findegil.
As for the first matter and I said before I think we must leave the three original companions, but I think that in QS is said that they were companions of Eärendil in all the seas, or something like this.

As for the second matter, I'm agree in your opinion but Haldir can be a good reason (as is said in the rejected annal) to the increase of vigilance in the forest of Narog, and the other one is a man so I don't have problems with the names. And the matter of Orodreth brougth me a more difficult rework in the whole text, for that reason I kept him as son of Finarfin.

Greetings

[Tar-Telperien]

Hello. I have returned from an absence of years; my interest in this project has recently been renewed. You're still doing such excellent work after all these years. I've not had much of a part aside from offering simple suggestions here and there, which I'm about to do again.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Gwarestrin. This must stand as there is nothing newer and nothing in published Sindarin corpus that helps in either determining its validity in Sindarin or in creating a possibly more correct Sindarin form. At least gwar- seems still valid as in Amon Gareth/Gwared upon which Gondolin is built. Also valid is the stem TIR- which is contained in –estrin according to the explanation of the name in BoLT 1, Appendix.

I'm afraid this won't work, for phonological reasons if nothing else. The consonant cluster -str- appears to be disallowed in later Sindarin. For example, the terms nothrim 'house' and nothlir 'family line' come from the word nost; when the word is compounded, -st because -th- to avoid the disallowed combinations -str- and -stl-. This process also happens in the very term Gondothrimbar, one of the other names of Gondolin: it is gond + ost + rim + bar. The compound **ostrim is impossible, so it becomes othrim instead. Thus, "Gwarestrin" as such has to be replaced by something else.

We seem to have a few options:

1. The most conservative one is simply to replicate the phonological process discussed above and replace Gwarestrin with Gwarethrin. I would have suggested this, but since Tolkien later replaced Gwareth with Gwared, it might be better to do something else, since the concept of a voiceless consonant at the end of the word has been done away with.

2. Therefore, another option is to use Gwaredrin, or something similar, thus preserving Tolkien's later preference of Gwared over Gwareth. (I am confused about the morphological boundary of this word. Is it Gwares-trin, or Gwarest-rin, or Gwar-estrin, or what?)

3. The third option would be to get rid of the (surely outdated) suffix -trin or whatever it is, along with changing the phonology. I lean toward this, but it would require more conjecture and editorial intrusion. What I'm most tempted to suggest is Minas Gwared, since minas was a common designation of citadels in later Sindarin. It works perfectly with the translation given in the text (Tower of Guard) and preserves the clear connection between the name of the city and the hill it stands on that exists in the original term Gwarestrin. The problem with this one, of course, is that it takes the most liberty with the text and ruins the alliteration of the Seven Names: all the names of Gondolin aside from Loth and Loth-a-laden start with G. Perhaps Gwarmindon could work? Mindon means an isolated hill with a central watch tower, which is essentially what Gondolin was.

EDIT: Okay, after having looked it up in the Fall of Gondolin names list, estrin apparently combines esc and tirin. If we want to be conservative, we could put that extra i back in and call it Gwarestirin. The well-known tir root would become more visible that way, in addition to the word being phonologically correct.

I don't know enough about Sindarin to come up with any other options. But it would seem that something has to be done about this glaring phonological error.

[Findegil]

It seems we have 2 open ends in this thread:

Bauglir -> Baugron:
It seems that Tolkien made a kind of standarisation of names late in his life. We already adopted Tauros -> Tauron, in another thread we discuss Maedros -> Maedron. All in all this makes the changes more consistent to me. I would adopt both Maedros -> Maedron and Bauglir -> Baugron

Gwarestrin -> ???
I think it would not be good to produce any new name like 'Minas Gwared' or 'Gwarmindon'. I would rather go with the conservativ approach and use 'Gwarestirin'.

Respectfuly
Findegil