General changes in TftE

[gondowe]

Of course the narns are in prose except some passages of the lay of Leithian but in spanish are not rhyme only rhetorical poetry language. But for this I have the english version to read it in loud voice.
I am a Wagnerian like Tolkienian and I like very much alliterative verses, that like the Narn Hurin would sound well in German.

A question, who are supposed to have composed the tales:

Ainulindale Rumil

Valaquenta Pengolodh?

Quenta Silmarillion Pengolodh

Narn Beren ?

Narn Hurin Dirhaval

Narn Gondolin Pengolodh?

Akallabeth ?

Of .... the second and third Age AElfwine?

Tale of Years First age Qennar Onotimo
Second Age Pengolodh?
Thiird Age


Greetings

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas is for sure a no go.

I’m not sure of this. Aren’t both named ‘Gelmir’ in the ‘Narn’ material? It would appear that Tolkien felt the repetition of the name was not a problem. I suppose one could argue that he decided it was a problem and the name ‘Faramir’ was intended to resolve it. But there is no indication that the ‘Faramir’ note is later or more authoritative than the text that uses ‘Gelmir’. On the contrary, UT (though I admit it’s not the most reliable source) seems to suggest that the ‘final’ version (such as it was) uses ‘Gelmir’.

A word about the repetition of Elvish names in general – I’ve been rather convinced for some time now that Tolkien’s statement that this did not happen should be interpreted to mean that Elves did not honour ancestors or historical figures by giving their names to their children (whereas Men did). Names could however be repeated ‘accidentally’. Thus Galdor of the Grey Havens was not named after Galdor of Gondolin; he was merely given the name ‘Galdor’ which happened also to have been the name of one of Gondolin’s captains. The same applies to Rumil and to Legolas (though I know Findegil has other ideas about the latter). ‘Glorfindel’ was different because, as Tolkien says, it was 1. a striking and slightly unusual name and 2. the name of a very famous hero of the First Age. Similarly, we would not expect another Elf to be named ‘Feanor’, for example. Another situation in which Elvish names are repeated (perhaps more pertinent here) is within a family. Thus, unless my memory fails me, all of Finwe’s sons and all of Feanor’s sons were given the father-name ‘Finwe’ and distinguishing prefixes were adopted later. And then there’s the name ‘Ambarussa’ that Nerdanel gave to both of the twins.

The upshot of all this is that I feel it’s often not a problem for an Elvish name to be repeated. The two Gelmirs may have been named alike accidentally, by parents who were each unaware of the other. Or they could be related and Gelmir could be a repeated family name like ‘Finwe’. Add to this the fact that either name could be either a father-name, a mother-name, or an after-name.

I agree that ‘Falathar’ and ‘Aerandir’ sound like epessi. They could also be prophetic mother-names, with ‘Gelmir/Faramir’ and ‘Arminas’ being the father-names. But then, ‘Erellont’ could be an epesse as well (I’m not sure what it means either, though the ‘er’ might mean ‘one’, ‘alone’, as in ‘Eru’ and ‘Eriol’). Further, we have no way of telling whether Falathar is Gelmir/Faramir and Aerandir Arminas or vice versa. And finally, one could potentially interpret the note as altering the story so that Earendil had five companions rather than three. With all this uncertainty, I’m a little hesitant about introducing the names (though I’d like to).

[Findegil]

I do not have answeres for all the tales and I doubt some of the authors you put in:

I am not sure how was supposed to tell AElfwine the Silmarillion and the Valaquenta.

Narn Beren as you call it was old. I think we have signs that it was already known in Beleriand probably composed shortly after Beren and Lúthien returned from Mandos. But by whom, we don't know.

Narn Gondolin: I have no real idea, but in The Lost Tales it is told by Littlehaert son of Voronwe. He is not a bad candidate for that tale even so do not know if he ever apeared after The Lost Tales.

The Akalabeth was the work of Elendil. I think we are told so some were.

Of .... the second and third Age I don't think Aelfwine is a good candidate for this text. I would think Bilbo would be fitting.

Qennar Onotimo wrod some work about the counting of time but he is quoted in the Annals. That means it is more likly that Pengolodh worte the Annals of Aman. For the Gray Annals we are never told who made them. I wouldn't credit one single author with them. Probably they were gebun by Dairon but others finished them.
The Tale of the Years of the second and thrid age were made by Hobbits. I think Peregrin Took is credited with them. It is told in the prefarce of the Appendices.
I think that Tolkien later envisage all the Tales of the Years to have the same author. In the case of the First Age (and probably the the times before sun and moon) they were drawn from the longer Annals and for the later ages composed from the knowledge gained in Imladris and Minas Tirth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Cross posting with Aiwendil. (I never thought that this would happen!)

Do we real have on single text of the Narn that has in it Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas? I don't think so. But still the point has some wight looking into the Grey Annals, were the encounter of Túrin with Arminas and Gelmir originates. But still in that text it is a rider made later then the main body of the text in which Arminas and Gelmir come to Nargothrond.
The impresion from what we have of these notes and plot synposes is that Faramir was a later replacement probably oferlook when the typescript of the coming to Nargothrond was made.

I agree in pricipal that the reuse of names inside the elvish race was not very stricly followed. (Also it is not only Legolas who is one and the same in my oppion, we also sufficient hints that Galdor of the Havens was one and the same Galdor of the Tree, Lord of Gondolin.) A connextion between Gelmir co of Arminas and Gemil son of Guilin would be strange in my oppion. Wouldn't Gelmir visit his kin Gwindor and or Guilin who are prominent in the tale? Such a detail could of course be lost, but stil it seems unlikely to me. And for a simple coincidence they are not fare enough seperated for my feeling. Even so Gelmir co of Arminas had none, Guilin and his family had some high reputation about the Elves of Finrafins house.

All over I think it is safer to replace Gelmir by Faramir.

Your doubts about the companiens of Earendil have more wight. I have to look into some sources and consider this a bit longer before giving some appropirate answere.

[Aiwendil]

Do we real have on single text of the Narn that has in it Gelmir son of Guilin and Gelmir companion of Arminas?

Well, the early portions of the Narn and the fragments from the middle are at least closely contemporary, and it certainly seems that Tolkien wrote about Gelmir the companion of Arminas when the story of Gelmir Guilin’s son was already in place. Note also that Gelmir Arminas’s companion appears in the later ‘Tuor’, written (as far as I can tell) after the Grey Annals but before the beginning and middle sections of the Narn.

But for me the question is simply this: was the note with the name ‘Faramir’ written before or after the text given in UT with Gelmir and Arminas? This is of course impossible for us to answer conclusively. From CT’s description of the note and from the text as presented in UT, I get the impression that the ‘Gelmir’ text is the latest form and that the plot-synopsis with ‘Faramir’ was only an outline that preceded it. I fully recognize though that the evidence is very shaky; and moreover it’s possible that CT himself misunderstood the relations among the texts when he published UT. Also, given that Gelmir and Arminas had already appeared in ‘Tuor’, it is perhaps a little strange that Tolkien should change the name to Faramir only to later revert to Gelmir. I need to think about this a little bit more (and would like to hear other opinions – Aran, Maedhros?), but I suppose I can see a fair argument for the change to Faramir.

On the subject of the authors of the texts, a few comments:

- I think that one cannot reconcile Tolkien’s latest ideas with Aelfwine of England as the transmitter of the legends, especially given Bilbo’s ‘Translations from the Elvish’. It has always seemed strange to me that Aelfwine appears in texts as late as the 1950s Ainulindale and the ‘Dangweth Pendolodh’, and I cannot fully explain this. But I think that, particularly once the idea entered that the Silmarillion was of Numenorean origin, Aelfwine ceased to be.

- I had always assumed the Valaquenta to be the work of Pengolodh, but searching for it a while ago I could find no statement at all pertaining to its authorship. Nonetheless, Pengolodh (Thingodhel, I suppose I must get used to calling him) seems a likely source.

- The Quenta Silmarillion is in MT said to have been written in Numenor. I think that this can be accepted even if one rejects the cosmological elements of MT.

- I seem to recall (though I’m not certain) a statement that all the ‘Great Tales’ of the Atanatarion were written by Men. That would mean none of ‘Beren and Luthien’, ‘Tuor’, or ‘Earendil’ could have been written by an Elf.

- I’m also quite sure Elendil is said explicitly to be the author of the Akallabeth, though I can’t recall the source at the moment. Perhaps LotR appendices?

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I believe LotR does name Elendil as the author of the Akallabeth; I'll check.

I personally believe that Tolkion envisioned many different versions of the Great Tales, all coming down different lines. I think that Bilbo's "Translations," the records of Minas Tirith and Numenor, and Ælfwine's translations in Tol Eressa were considered not mutually exclusive forms of transmission, but rather that Tolkien envisioned himself as taking them all together and plucking bits of information from each to get a rounded and complete history.

I will have to look into the Gelmir/Faramir issue more closely before formulating an opinion.

[gondowe]

As for the names: I think that if we assume a rule (or in my case if I assume a rule) there must be no exceptions, and I admit that I have no solution in the case of Rumil, and possibly will be the exception of all rules.
So, for me, there cannot be two Gelmirs. And as I said before Legolas of the LOTR cannot be in FoG, but Galdor is more possible (and i replace Legolas for Galdor as i said).

In the matter of transmission of the lore, Tolkien left unfinished this, ( I also can not explain Aelwine in post LOTR texts, but if he is, then Tolkien wanted to retake the character) and we can imagine things, because does not alter the history that is told. And i always thought that the hobbits and AElfwine are compatible.
At the time Aelfwine arrives in Eressea the hobbits are dead, the books in middle earth(Europe) are lost, and the only source is that of Eressea.
Aelwine talks with Pengolodh or whoever and translate the books of Bilbo and Frodo with material Numenorean and new material added when they arrived at the end of the third age in the isle, but also translate other material (because I think is not told what contains exactly the Translations of the Elvish of the Red Book).

The vision of the whole Aelfwine material must be human because part of the sources are human and he is a Middle Age human too.

Greetings

[Findegil]

About Falathar, Aerandir, Erellont and Faramir/Gelmir, Arminas:

I looked up some more elements of the names:
FALAS - coastline, surfe; THAR - beyond => The name has a meaning like beyond the surf, out at the high see
Aerandir => Seewanderer
ERE - lonely; EL - Star; LONT - probably related to LOND way on see, passage as in Aqualonde = passage of the swans => I have no clou how to combine that with a good sense.

The three companiones were named in the Quenta Silmarillion for the first time. There Aerandir was named Airandir and that name was later changed on the copy made for the Later Quenta Silmarillion material. We can not say when this change was made, and we have no clou when exactly the note about Faramir and Arminas was written.

With all this uncertainties it would probably be the best solution to be ambiguous: We could us the not in the place were Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas leave Nargothrond and stick to the names of Earendils companions. Thus we leave all decisions to the reader. He can chose for himself out of the following possible interpretations:
a) Falathar, Aerandir and/or Erellont were epessi of Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas
b) Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas were companions of one of Earendils earlier journeys.
The only choice we remove is the possibilty that Earendil had more then three mariners with him on his last travel. But I see no way around here. We could either stick to three or we must ad some construction that makes clear that there were more. At least of course we could also skip the names and the number. But then we would have Faramir/Gelmir and Arminas named earlier and looking like Earendils sole companions.

Respectfully
Findegil