Hurt and Heal Take 2

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

He was a greedy jerk who started a war against the dwarves.

Yes, but that's actually one of the most interesting of his character moments. At least he has some character. The way he stays behind, he meets with Melian, the way he interacts with her and also with Beren, and last of all, this Dwarf thing... he's a complex character, unlike many others in the Sil. (And aside from that, as if your Fëanor was not a greedy jerk who started a war with his own kin and lead his followers under the Doom, so I think there's not that much to compare.)

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, but that's actually one of the most interesting of his character moments. At least he has some character. The way he stays behind, he meets with Melian, the way he interacts with her and also with Beren, and last of all, this Dwarf thing... he's a complex character, unlike many others in the Sil. (And aside from that, as if your Fëanor was not a greedy jerk who started a war with his own kin and lead his followers under the Doom, so I think there's not that much to compare.)

And yet you dislike Turin...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by mormegil

And yet you dislike Turin...

It's not that I dislike him that much, I actually sort of like him in CoH, but he's just not the really my favourite hero.

Heal Ulmo, double hurt Azaghal. Call it Thingol's revenge from beyond the grave.

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (9)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (8)
Finrod (10)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (10)
Ungoliant (8)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(And aside from that, as if your Fëanor was not a greedy jerk who started a war with his own kin and lead his followers under the Doom, so I think there's not that much to compare.)

It's different. Fëanor had some charisma. And dark hair.

Besides I imagine Thingol looks like a lewd grandpa just because I once managed to paint him like that. Eww.

[Gordis]

Hurt Ulmo, hurt Ungoliant. Heal Finrod, the only dude who cared about Men.

Legate: I have read CoH rather recently. Didn't help at all to develop feelings for anybody there...

Phantom: WOW - it were the Teleri who started the bloodbath at Alqualonde! I am convinced now. Go, Feanor!

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (8)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (10)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

[Macalaure]

Heal Míriel, double hurt Huan

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (9)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (9)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (8)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

[the phantom]

Hurt Turgon, Hurt Mim, Heal Hurin

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (7)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (9)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (7)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (8)

Thingol by Phantom

[Aganzir]

Hurt Míriel, hurt Ungoliant, heal Ecthelion.

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (5)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (7)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Thingol by Phantom

[Lalaith]

Double hurt Turgon again - remember the Fen of Serech. Treacherous, ungrateful coward who used Men as cannon fodder. Heal Feanor who was at least interesting.

Túrin (9)
Melian (10)
Húrin (10)
Morwen (9)
Maedhros (10)
Mim (8)
Aredhel (8)
Thuringwethil (8)
Lúthien (10)
Ulmo (8)
Fëanor (6)
Fingon (12)
Turgon (5)
Finrod (11)
Ecthelion (10)
Huan (8)
Ungoliant (6)
Azaghâl (7)
Míriel (7)

Thingol by Phantom

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Legate

as if your Fëanor was not a greedy jerk who started a war with his own kin and lead his followers under the Doom, so I think there's not that much to compare.

Whatever.

He didn't start the war. Melkor did. Melkor made it his number one goal to corrupt Feanor. Once he decided to do that, it was a given that Feanor was going to be tainted. The only people who had the power to undo the damage were the Valar. But instead of undoing Melkor's lies (like Melian did with Hurin) they punished Feanor via banishment which only strengthened Melkor's stain.

Yeah. Really great judgment there.

Once that happened, it was over. Something bad was going to happen. And Melkor stealing the greatest work of hands ever (Silmarils) and killing Feanor's father pushed Feanor over the edge (remember, it said Feanor loved his dad more than any son ever loved his father).

And when Feanor arrived at Alqualonde, he didn't start the killing. He offered the idea of Olwe's people helping them build boats or ferrying them. It was a reasonable offer considering the Noldor had built their city for them. But no. Because the Valar didn't want the Noldor to leave, their puppet Olwe refused to help.

So Feanor began manning the ships. And then the Alqualonde elves starting throwing them overboard. And remember, the Noldor were weighted down with weapons and and armor and such, so the Alqualonde elves were essentially drowning them. They started the killing.

But anyway, this exercise in logical thinking usually proves too much for my fellow Downers. It's much easier mentally to blame Feanor rather than trace things back to the Valar.

[mormegil]

So phantom was Feanor obligated to have Melkor taint him? Perhaps he could devalue his possessions enough. I think the Feanor story is all about point of view and we have a different point of view. Why is it the Valar's job to bail him out?

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by morm

So phantom was Feanor obligated to have Melkor taint him?

He didn't have a choice. If Melkor decides he is going to corrupt someone, if he's allowed to work his evil magic (the way the Valar allowed him to), then it's pretty much a given that he's going to succeed. Even Hurin the Steadfast couldn't help but be tainted by Melkor.

Once Melkor decided that ruining Feanor was his top priority, it was going to happen. Melkor is that powerful.

If his target of choice would've been Finrod during those years in Valinor, then Finrod would've done something nutty (unless the Valar had stepped in to counter Melkor).

Originally Posted by morm

Why is it the Valar's job to bail him out?

Why is it their job to be fair?

Why is it their job to try and undo Melkor's evil?

Why is it their job to have compassion on a child of Eru and attempt to set them right?

You've gotta be kidding.

If you want to see how Feanor should've been dealt with, look at Melian and Hurin. She did the right thing and showed compassion and undid Melkor's malice. The Valar on the other hand strengthened Melkor's lies with their harsh banishment. They dropped the ball, plain and simple.

Anyway, this is exactly why I didn't want Feanor included in this thing. Hardly anyone thinks about him properly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

=AganzirIt's different. Fëanor had some charisma. And dark hair.

Besides I imagine Thingol looks like a lewd grandpa just because I once managed to paint him like that. Eww.

All right, point taken

Originally Posted by the phantom

He didn't start the war. Melkor did. Melkor made it his number one goal to corrupt Feanor. Once he decided to do that, it was a given that Feanor was going to be tainted. The only people who had the power to undo the damage were the Valar. But instead of undoing Melkor's lies (like Melian did with Hurin) they punished Feanor via banishment which only strengthened Melkor's stain.

Yeah. Really great judgment there.

Once that happened, it was over. Something bad was going to happen. And Melkor stealing the greatest work of hands ever (Silmarils) and killing Feanor's father pushed Feanor over the edge (remember, it said Feanor loved his dad more than any son ever loved his father).

And when Feanor arrived at Alqualonde, he didn't start the killing. He offered the idea of Olwe's people helping them build boats or ferrying them. It was a reasonable offer considering the Noldor had built their city for them. But no. Because the Valar didn't want the Noldor to leave, their puppet Olwe refused to help.

So Feanor began manning the ships. And then the Alqualonde elves starting throwing them overboard. And remember, the Noldor were weighted down with weapons and and armor and such, so the Alqualonde elves were essentially drowning them. They started the killing.

But anyway, this exercise in logical thinking usually proves too much for my fellow Downers. It's much easier mentally to blame Feanor rather than trace things back to the Valar.

Oh, how corrupted by Morgoth's lies you have become! You start with speaking about him, yet end up with Valar, who were as much victims as your Fëanor was.

However anyway, Fëanor was selfish and greedy person, who did not care about the lives of his kin, and even of those close to him who followed (I heard about some ship burning). Mainly, however, you say the Valar were the only ones to remove the damage. Not really. They asked Fëanor to give him the Silmarils, yet here his greed prevailed (it's of no matter that he factically didn't have them anymore at that point) and he refused to give it to them. And they did not force him, by any means, even though I can imagine people who would argue they had the right to, as there was the fate of Arda at stake (I think it was right the way they did it, but anyway).

Perhaps the Noldor had moral right for some of the Teleri's help, and they were their kin after all, however anyway, Noldor had no right to go and take their ships if Teleri did not give them to them. They Noldor acted no differently from Morgoth, the basis of the deed is the same: stealing something that does not belong to them, and eventually killing others in the process.

P.S. But seeing that also Morm has joined the discussion, I am beginning to worry that we got a bit off-topic on this thread