Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Is Smaug really more clever than Glaurung? After all, he manages to let slip to a teensy Hobbit where his vulnerable part is. Would Glaurung have done that?

I always had the impression that Smaug was unaware of the weak spot in his breast.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Is Smaug really more clever than Glaurung? After all, he manages to let slip to a teensy Hobbit where his vulnerable part is. Would Glaurung have done that?

Smaug only had one weak spot, Glaurung nearly got killed by a bunch of dwarves and was stabbed in the belly. Plus, Glaurung with his entire horde could not defeat an army of dwarves, while Smaug single handedly destroyed an entire colony of dwarves. Evil Smaug (but in here I guess that's a good thing)!

++Smaug

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Smaug was fiery, tempestous, and flying, and has a fantastic voice. He makes red and green flames and is golden, which makes a lovely sight. He lives close to Esgaroth, which is a very lovely place. (Thus, he obviously has good taste.) Besides, he was killed by one of the coolest Men in Middle-Earth.

Glaurung is a stupid and lazy worm who cannot fly and gets stabbed by Túrin, who is not of the most adorable characters in Middle-Earth.

++Smaug

[Tuor in Gondolin]

On the other hand Galurung was killed by the greatest mannish,
and possibly also (I think Tolkien said so) elvish warrior in
Middle-earth history while Smaug was taken out by a
provincial Home Guardish fellow using a lucky arrow.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

On the other hand Galurung was killed by the greatest mannish,
and possibly also (I think Tolkien said so) elvish warrior in
Middle-earth history while Smaug was taken out by a
provincial Home Guardish fellow using a lucky arrow.

Hey, Boromir showed us what arrows can do, too. He was still a great hero.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Smaug only had one weak spot, Glaurung nearly got killed by a bunch of dwarves and was stabbed in the belly. Plus, Glaurung with his entire horde could not defeat an army of dwarves, while Smaug single handedly destroyed an entire colony of dwarves.

The Lonely Mountain was one mountain inhabited by dwarves.

Gondolin was a city chosen especially for protection by Ulmo, and guarded by Manwe's own eagles. The place was basically designed to be a fort. And this isn't mentioning the fact that there were great warriors there who could kill balrogs.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

On the other hand Galurung was killed by the greatest mannish,
and possibly also (I think Tolkien said so) elvish warrior in
Middle-earth history while Smaug was taken out by a
provincial Home Guardish fellow using a lucky arrow.

Yes, but isn't that even cooler for Smaug? The coolest thing was that this Home Guardish fellow was a King.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I always had the impression that Smaug was unaware of the weak spot in his breast.

That's a weakness in itself, to be unaware of a weak spot, or in the case of Smaug, to be so arrogantly self-assured that one would assume no weak spots exist.

Though in terms of 'badness', that kind of arrogance, despite being a failing, does add a certain cachet

[the phantom]

This is a tough one.

Smaug is one of my favorite characters. His chatter with Bilbo is priceless.

But Glaurung did more damage I believe (played a roll in a couple big battles and overthrew Nargothrond). And he was also killed in a cooler way, by a much greater slayer.

And the weapons used- you have a lucky arrow versus the sword destined to slay Morgoth himself.

*squirms*

++Glaurung

But really I'd be happy with either one winning.

[Thinlómien]

++Smaug

[Morthoron]

++Glaurung

I'll go old school on this one. Glaurung's adversaries were far tougher than Smaug's. Obviously the 1st Age Dwarves did not run, while the 3rd Age Dwarves shrieked and scattered like wee li'l girls.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Glaurung

He seems to be more inspiration from the
Professor's reading of Sigurd slaying
Fafnir. (although Smaug did
have a great dragon hoard).


Voting so far
Smaug-4
Glaurung-3

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Glaurung

Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that. Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.

Something about a big bad dragon using a "guilt trip" against his foe amuses me - and so:

++Glaurung

Plus:

Hail, Nienor, daughter of Húrin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Túrin son of Húrin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself.

That is just so evil.

[Lalwendë]

Rikae's case is a good one here - those really are evil words!!!!

[Macalaure]

I voted for him before and I'm voting for him now.

++Glaurung

[skip spence]

Smaug is a badass, but Glaurung is his daddy nonetheless.

++Glaurung

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

The Lonely Mountain was one mountain inhabited by dwarves.

Yes, the greatest of the Dwarven holds, after Khazad-dum fell into darkness. Also Smaug drove them out single handedly, I think that makes him greater. How should I put it... more independent than Glaurung.

I'll go old school on this one. Glaurung's adversaries were far tougher than Smaug's. Obviously the 1st Age Dwarves did not run, while the 3rd Age Dwarves shrieked and scattered like wee li'l girls.

Or was Glaurung obviously weaker than Smaug? Glaurung is worm that can only wriggle around and spout fire against his foes. Smaug can actually fly! Glaurung is only half a dragon.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Or was Glaurung obviously weaker than Smaug? Glaurung is worm that can only wriggle around and spout fire against his foes. Smaug can actually fly! Glaurung is only half a dragon.

And yet caused much more damage. Doesn't that make him even more amazing?

And his "playing" with the children of Hurin makes him much more evil. Smaug just kills (yes, there was that bit where he was thinking of picking of the Lake men if I recall correctly, but he failed). Glaurung makes people suffer for his own pleasure. Doesn't that make him more evil?

And he has hypnotic powers.

++Glaurung

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And his "playing" with the children of Hurin makes him much more evil. Smaug just kills (yes, there was that bit where he was thinking of picking of the Lake men if I recall correctly, but he failed). Glaurung makes people suffer for his own pleasure. Doesn't that make him more evil?

Perhaps, but it doesn't make him very smart. And smart counts.

Allow me to again point out that Glaurung's making people suffer for his own pleasure was his own undoing. His involuted, Ernst Stavro Bloefeld scheme left alive the man who killed him.

So he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

[Nogrod]

Go Glaurung go!

Glaurung is the more mythical and awesome as a mere sentiment or feeling the reader has. The name of Glaurung * rings deep into the layers of the unconscious parts of many languages inciting something like a premordial fear and awe; it calls forwards an ur-creature you will tremble in front of, whereas Smaug sounds more like a cheap rendering of some slimy or just bare un-nice syllables in English.

*remember to spell Glaurung correctly: like keeping the vowels separate: 'a' as wide as 'u' in "but" and 'u' as narrow as 'u' in "put".

++ Glaurung

[Lalwendë]

Ah well, laying all clever arguments aside, they are still dragons and as such I can't make a logical choice. Therefore I'm going with the one who has lived longest in my imagination.

++Smaug

Unlike Nogrod, I prefer his name, too. Smaug, it reminds me of smog...

[Durelin]

++Smaug

I have read The Hobbit so many times. I have only read LotR once all the way through and have only read bits and pieces of The Sil and such...

I love Smaug. He's iconic. A good ol' fashioned dragon who lived a life of luxury sleeping on a hoard of treasure, and who even enjoyed a good conversation nearly as much as a good meal.

Edit: I also prefer Smaug's name. It's more suited. In hearing Glaurung's name in the past I used to think he was some other balrog with a name or something, for some reason assuming that from the name. Not sure why, but...I don't know, it's definitely not a dragon/wyrm/worm name to me.

"Smog" or pronouncing the "au" in a German-y way, either way it's cool. The monosyllabic name is more ominous.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Unlike Nogrod, I prefer his name, too. Smaug, it reminds me of smog...

Exactly my point!

Smaug is not a primordial, mythical, your deepest unconsciousness-tingling terrifying evil you can't quite describe in any way, but more like "smog" or any other everyday thing that can be unsettling or even frightening but is not quite the same thing.

In this case the fact that we know so much about Smaug turns against it as it's clear Smaug can be grasped at some level as to being a petty and greedy monster whereas Glaurung is just some dark thing you can't quite get to grips with and whose name makes you shiver.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Exactly my point!

Smaug is not a primordial, mythical, your deepest unconsciousness-tingling terrifying evil you can't quite describe in any way, but more like "smog" or any other everyday thing that can be unsettling or even frightening but is not quite the same thing.

In this case the fact that we know so much about Smaug turns against it as it's clear Smaug can be grasped at some level as to being a petty and greedy monster whereas Glaurung is just some dark thing you can't quite get to grips with and whose name makes you shiver.

Ah but smog kills (according to the book Austerity Britain which I was reading recently) - you might think it's just a dark bit of fog, but it's a silent, deadly killer. Smog isn't an everyday thing but a dark and sinister thing that can have you fooled! Tricksy...

And Smaug also sounds better. It's like the expletive of an angry Scot - "Ach! Smaug!"

And reason three - it is also uncannily similar to smug. Which also describes the timorous beastie perfectly.




Facetious reason four - it makes me laugh too as it sounds like something you can buy in IKEA

[Tuor in Gondolin]

To date, the Worm of Greed has overcome an early
lead by Smaug the Golden:

Smaug-6
Glaurung-8

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Facetious reason four - it makes me laugh too as it sounds like something you can buy in IKEA

Lol! No, it'd have to be Smaüg or Smäug then. Seems like a good name for a sofa.

And I mean...Glaurung and Gandalf?! Really?!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Lol! No, it'd have to be Smaüg or Smäug then.

And I mean...Glaurung and Gandalf?! Really?!

Smaüg Side Table, £19.99. Please collect from Aisle 37, Row B, Shelf 17.

Then you get to the warehouse and there are none left so you have to settle for an Ancalagon coffe table instead...

[Nerwen]

Let's see...

1. They both have cool names.
2. They both have memorable (and evil) personalities.
3. They're both dragons.

It's almost a coin toss... but I believe I'll vote

++Glaurung.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Come on! Let's rally for Smaug! Let's give it a great finish! He's cooler! He can fly! He spits red and green flames! He talks to Hobbits!

Smaug! Smaug!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Come on! Let's rally for Smaug! Let's give it a great finish! He's cooler! He can fly! He spits red and green flames! He talks to Hobbits!

Thank you, Legate! Glaurung's a worm (isn't that a bit disgusting when you think about it) Smaug is a full blooded dragon.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

And yet caused much more damage. Doesn't that make him even more amazing?

In a way. He was obviously bigger than any other dragon; ergo, the key to his success. I don't find it attractive how he's always accompanied by a great army when he goes fighting (except for those two times when he got seriously wounded and killed), dragons should be more independent.

And his "playing" with the children of Hurin makes him much more evil. Smaug just kills (yes, there was that bit where he was thinking of picking of the Lake men if I recall correctly, but he failed). Glaurung makes people suffer for his own pleasure. Doesn't that make him more evil?

Not really, he got killed by toying with his food. I like people, or dragons in this case, who are more straight forward with their work.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Final results:

Smaug-6 Glaurung-8

Glaurung the Golden wins a hard fought contest
over Smaug the Magnificent .

Glaurung professed a lack of concern over ever
encountering a winner of other Popularity Cups,
saying "I've taunted Turin, I've fought with Turin,
and I can tell you, the Gray Pilgrim is no Turin ."

Btw, if anyone at some future date starts another Popularity
Contest, one interesting one would be women of Middle-earth/
Aman. There are at least 20-24 easily selected fom Middle-earth,
and more if maia and vala are included. Of course, one debatable
classification would be Melian. Would she be included
if maia in general were not?

[Nogrod]

The ur-worm wins!

Which is only decent.



Hurray!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Btw, if anyone at some future date starts another Popularity
Contest, one interesting one would be women of Middle-earth/
Aman. There are at least 20-24 easily selected fom Middle-earth,
and more if maia and vala are included. Of course, one debatable
classification would be Melian. Would she be included
if maia in general were not?

Oh, I have actually been thinking about something similar... before the Popularity Cups there was a rather similar game called "Middle-Earth Survivor" and I always intended to revive the tradition to make a female survivor game but I never managed to do that... But I won't be around to arrange any contests now anyway, so feel free to do that you others.

Thanks for the game, Tuor!

[Andsigil]

I don't have time to run one of these, but how about a Middle Earth Weapons Cup?

Ringil vs Narsil vs Gurthang vs Aiglos vs Grond, etc, etc...

[Nogrod]

I could call for this "ME feminine popularity cup" with Lommy. But we can only open it at the beginning of April as she will be away before that.

So unless someone of you has a better idea we'll take on with that in about two weeks.

I don't know what it tells about me as a male but I find females a lot more interesting than weapons...

But feel free to take on that or any other idea before that.