Pengolodh - is it his name?

[Aiwendil]

Nice to see you venturing into this forum, mark12_30!

You raise a point worthy, perhaps, of some note. One somewhat odd consequence of our principles is that a sizeable number of familiar names are in our version replaced by names that appear only once, and often in brief, hasty notes, in Tolkien's writings. 'Avranc' becomes 'Daruin', for example, and even 'Gelion' is in our version 'Duin Daer'.

The fundamental reason for this is that name changes are by their nature easy to implement. Whereas similar late notes that propose plot changes are often 'proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed' and thus, according to our principles, not taken up, name changes are almost always quite straightforward and therefore almost always allowed.

I'm not suggesting that anything should (or can) be done about this. In theory, we could add to our principles a stipulation that long-standing names are not to be changed on the basis of a single isolated note, but that would be quite arbitrary and would leave a large number of ambiguous cases (not to mention that allowing alterations to the principles would really be opening Pandora's box). Like it or not, I think we must use 'Duin Daer' and 'Thingodhel'. But this is perhaps one unfortunate feature of our version of the Silmarillion.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Well, it's not terrible, because a complete set of name-changes means that all the descriptions of Pengolodh will now be descriptions of Thingódhel, so people will be able to know who he is anyway.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Aran e-Godhellim

(...) Etymologically, "Pengolodh" seems to mean (somewhat freely) "one who has wisdom with words," or "the Noldo of words."

Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Goloð was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengoloð. KWEN- (whence kwenedé) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengoloð (with respect to the Thingódhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.

[Aiwendil]

Greetings, Galin! Nice to see you here.

I don't have 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', so I'm grateful for the information. It sounds as if the name 'Pengolodh' is definitely well established post-'Quendi and Eldar', so I think we need to reverse our previous decision and use it rather than 'Thingodhel'.

[Findegil]

Yes, it seems Pengoloð is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Yes, it seems Pengoloð is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

Respectfully
Findegil

Yes, I have seen it too, I prefer Pengolodh as an Exile.

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Galin

Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Goloð was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengoloð. KWEN- (whence kwenedé) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengoloð (with respect to the Thingódhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.

Hmm. I don't have access to those manuscripts, so I can't add anything. Thanks for dropping in to tell us!