ROTK - Ultimate Best Film winner

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Gee whiz folks - this news would have gone over better on a Star Wars board. I would have thought people on a Tolkien board would have been very happy to hear it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh come on, STW– you know we fancy ourselves as intellectuals here. Do you really expect us to be thrilled that a bunch of Yahoo! users have voted "Return of the King" TEH MOST AWSOMEST MOVIE EVAH LIEK WHOA!!!!111!!!!

So humiliating...

Actually, the folks at TheOneRing.net are doing handstands of joy due to the proclamation, but they have always been more film/fan boy oriented (not all, there are many serious Tolkien enthusiasts there, but there are even more Legolas-lovers). I think there are perhaps more folks here who are interested in the literature and not so much the films; at least that's my impression. Personally, I don't consider RotK in my top 10 films, or top 20 for that matter. The poor scripting and juvenile plot changes ruined the experience for me. Brilliant cinematography, great special effects, but ham-handed direction and some questionable casting. I am sure you have a difference of opinion in that regard, but we wouldn't be having many in-depth discussions here if we all followed the company line.

[Durelin]

I always get disturbed by how much some of the *intellectuals* here love to attack anyone who insults their *intellectualism*. You've gone well beyond the the usual complaing about the films on this thread.

Get over yourselves enough to be respectful maybe, please?

I apologize, but I really did feel that was necessary. I should have left bad enough alone, but here I am hitting the reply button...

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I always get disturbed by how much the *intellectuals* here love to attack anyone who insults their *intellectualism*. You've gone well beyond the the usual whining about the films on this thread.

But we're such elitists around here, Durelin, we simply can't.

Speaking strictly about movies here and not books. I feel if any LOTR movie should win best film it should have be Fellowship of the Ring. It was far more magical than Return of the King and I thought the script was better than either of the other two LOTR movies.

Still there are better movies that have come out since ROTK. There are scenes that if I had never read the books would jump out to me as ridiculous and stupid compared to the larger story. Example: Denethor's almost Mel Brooks-ish death plunge, how was that not funny? Or all the build up of Saruman in the first two movies, but in the theatrical release he's not even shown..., and why should Merry and Pippin be honored like Frodo and Sam?

As a movie ROTK has great battle scenes and for the most part the dialogue is good (ignoring all and any references to Arwen being tied to the Ring). But to label it the greatest movie of all time is far fetched. In my opinion it's not even the best of the three, much less the best movie I've ever seen. I will still gladly watch it and suspend my annoyance at book changes to enjoy it, but I'd hardly put it above great pieces of cinema like Gone with the Wind, Schindler's List, or even Little Miss Sunshine.

[Morthoron]

I would agree with Kitanna's estimation of FotR being the best of the three, perhaps because there were far fewer unnecessary flights of fancy in that one, and the strong performances of both Sir Ians, McKellen and Holm, as well as Sean Bean.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Ditto for FOTR.

Example: Denethor's almost Mel Brooks-ish death plunge, how was that not funny?

I guess it's not good to be the Steward
.

And there's the worst bit in RoTK, Gandalf assaulting
the Steward. Eowyn was still hot, though.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I always get disturbed by how much some of the *intellectuals* here love to attack anyone who insults their *intellectualism*.

If that was directed at me: uh– you do realise I was trying to be funny, don't you?

*sigh*

'Tis a thankless task. Or perhaps I'm just not– *sniff* – not very good at it... *sob*


*broken-hearted weeping*

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If that was directed at me: uh– you do realise I was trying to be funny, don't you?

I thought so, but wasn't sure (sarcasm doesn't transmit well over the nets, I know this well) - thus, it was not directed at you (promise), nor at any specific person.

What I think we could keep in mind about the Best Picture award for RotK is that, at least as it seemed to me, the award was a sort of "wow, those were all three big movies - here ya go!"

They are pretty epic productions, and good films, all three (of course to varying degrees).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Personally, I would like to see the age demographics of the survey. I wonder if a large proportion of the voters have even seen such films as Lawrence of Arabia or Casablanca, or even have the wherewithal to judge the merits of a great film.

As Mnemosyne said, I believe, these are Yahoo, internet users, so likely younger. It is just an internet poll, so nothing to get worked up over ye film-despisers. They were/are very popular with the "younger generation" I suppose. And hey, they've gotten a lot of people to read Tolkien's work, myself included. And really their influence on cinema is pretty strong.

Would I have voted for RotK, or even the films collectively, as the best films of all time? Nah. The best films of all time were not "best pictures". "Luke, I am your father..."

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Would I have voted for RotK, or even the films collectively, as the best films of all time? Nah. The best films of all time were not "best pictures". "Luke, I am your father..."

Ummm...the intellectual in me wants to throttle you with Jabba the Hut's chain. Star Wars and its pedestrian progeny are the most overrated films in this galaxy, or even in a galaxy far, far away.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Durelin

IAnd really their influence on cinema is pretty strong.

Now this is a very interesting point. It adds a new perspective to our discussions and lamentations. Nicely done, Durelin.

What has been their influence on other films so far? Certainly they represent a tremendous development in special effects and the filming of three movies at one time was unique. And the cinematography was superb. (But so was David Lean's, to say nothing of the achievements in this field of Japanese directors.)

But what other impact have the three movies made on other directors, on other movies? Can we look at recent movies and say, 'yes, yes, there's Jackson's style"-- or Jackson's influence, or Jackson's mark?

"Inquiring minds" want to know.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And really their influence on cinema is pretty strong.

I wonder what other director/creators could have done to enhance/change what PJ did. CGI is great and all, but I wonder what would have been done if someone like Jim Henson had tackled the project before his death. Snuffleupagus has a Mumakil anyone?

Or even how would LOTR been enhanced if scenese like the Barrow Wights had been included? I wasn't extremely impressed with the look of the King of the Dead, so I wonder what the wights would have turned out.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I wonder what other director/creators could have done to enhance/change what PJ did. CGI is great and all, but I wonder what would have been done if someone like Jim Henson had tackled the project before his death. Snuffleupagus has a Mumakil anyone?

Or even how would LOTR been enhanced if scenese like the Barrow Wights had been included? I wasn't extremely impressed with the look of the King of the Dead, so I wonder what the wights would have turned out.

I remember a discussion by the special effects group somewhere in the Extended Edition of RotK that they were rushing to finish their version of the King of the Dead because the production of the Pirates of the Caribbean were working concurrently on the look of Barbarossa and the dead pirates. If you compare the ghastly features of Barbarossa and the King of the Dead, they are virtually kissing cousins -- although I suppose that is a gross analogy.

I am not altogether sure that Jackson has left some great legacy for future directors. WETA technology is certainly evident in other films, of course, and CGI has proliferated to the point where there is almost nothing left of humanity in films like 300 or Beowulf. I don't necessarily view that as a good thing, however. The films Jackson made prior to the Lord of the Rings are Saturday matinee fair, good for the genre they are in but not great, and I would suggest that King Kong was nowhere near the achivement of the original film, nor did it add anything important to that film's legacy. I rented Jackson's King Kong once and was irritated I wasted the four bucks.

Recently, the deplorable site EW issued its top 25 active directors, found here...

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20259843,00.html

Both Jackson and Guillermo Del Toro were on the list. Good for them, I guess, but the list is suspect, and many of the choices are laughable, particularly since such great 'active' directors as Milos Foreman (One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Amadeus, People vs Larry Flynt), Roman Polanski (Rosemary's Baby, The Pianist, Chinatown), Francis Ford Coppolla (The Godfather Trilogy, The Conversation, Apocalypse Now), and Jonathan Demme (Melvin and Howard, Silence of the Lambs, Philadelphia) are not included. Yet they applaud the guy who made Elf and Iron Man as more significant than the directors I just mentioned? Whatever.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am not altogether sure that Jackson has left some great legacy for future directors.

I have a similar hesitation. And while polls and popularity speak to the praise of the fans or the masses or the select niches of viewers, backed up by the rings of the cash register, I think in film history what really marks a brilliant director or brilliant film is the effect on future film makers. They are, after all, the artists who create the art and so they sense the pulse of the art in a way that we mere viewers can not. Which is not to say that simple fans can't have an appreciation for film, just that maybe the artists have a special "in".

'course I could be wrong. Maybe in ten years some hot shot will show up on the indy circuit who boldly goes where PJ did not while still having that telling nod to PJ. It wouldn't even have to be in the fantasy genre; it could be any genre.