Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I've read about William in The Hobbit,
I've seen the relative intelligence of William
and Tom in The Hobbit, and I can tell you
Tom is no William.

+ + Scatha

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Scatha the Worm-7 Tom-0

Tom walks off in dusgust into the
rising sun munching on a leg of mutton.

Next: With an admonition to consider
a poet's observation that

Good fences make good neighbors

Smaug vs. Master of Laketown

[Morthoron]

++Smaug

The dragon roasts the bureaucrat in protest over an increase in property tax on his estate in Erebor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Of course I like Smaug a lot. But, in order to show that I like the other guy as well, and also in order to stand for my PT, I vote

++The Master of Laketown

[Andsigil]

++Smaug the Golden

[Eönwë]

As much as I hate not to be "A Voice That Gainsayeth" in this case (yes, Legate), I think that i have to go for:

++Smaug

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Master of Laketown

as he "masterfully" uses a credit and mortgage
crisis in Rhovannion to call in Smaug's
overdue mortgage payment (caused by a crash
in the price of gold and precious gems on the
Gondorian futures market).

[Durelin]

++Smaug

The Master of Laketown was just a greedy s.o.b. Smaug was a greedy (naturally) dragon.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Smaug-3 Master of Laketown-2

Next:

The Witch King vs. Sauron

[Andsigil]

There wouldn't be any Witch King if it weren't for Sauron.

++Sauron

[Macalaure]

Tough one, but I enjoy the evilness of Sauron in Númenor more than the evilness displayed by the Witch-king in LotR.

++Sauron

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Yes, for this match it seems to be Sauron of First and/or
Second Ages vs. TWK in the Third. Third Age Sauron,
especially PJ's eyeball variant, seems a touch lacking in
personality.

Actually they were both rather cowardly (or shall we say,
favorably disposed to strategic redeployments) in combat
situations.

[Durelin]

++The Witch King

I just have to. I normally like the minions more than the big baddies anyway. Of course Sauron is a minion himself, but... The nazgul (in the books, mind) were very frightening to me...much scarier and more menacing than Sauron ever was. This is only TA Sauron, but...I've only read pieces of the Sil, so, that's who I'm most familiar with!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with Durelin and have to vote the WK. I wholeheartedly agree about the First Age Sauron (and Second Age), but WK is a nice guy. He's a Nazgul. In some way, I like him more than Sauron. I will go and like to have a chat with him. With Sauron, no way.

++The Witch-King of Angmar

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

++Sauron

Just because.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Witch King of Angmar

He started out as "only" a man and
grew (descended?) into evilness.
Perhaps because he had been a
powerful king earlier he had a nice evil
way of psyching out opponents (almost
Smaugish). See: Earnur

[the phantom]

The Witch King is awesome. He could win this thing.

But then there is the argument that without Sauron there would be no Witch King.

But surely the apprentice is allowed to eclipse his master?

But then there is the first and second age... I just can't get past that. Sauron was so incredibly awesome. The business with Beren. He was soooo evil. And he could change into a flying vampire. And he's responsible for Werewolves. And he fooled people again and again. He brought down the greatest empire ever through deception and clever speaking.

That's just impossibly evil.

++Sauron

[Groin Redbeard]

++Witch King of Angmar

He has that mysterious air about him. I like that in Tolkien's characters.

[Eönwë]

++Sauron

In the first and second ages. Absolutely brilliantly evil.

[Mnemosyne]

There are some who would say Sauron is the lesser of the two, for he was beaten by a girl and a dog, and actually gave her the word that bound the stones of his tower together so that she could set her boyfriend free.

In addition, his ultimate defeat was brought about by a halfling, the weakest of the Free Peoples.

During the War of the Ring, he made hasty strokes that went awry, and mostly sat upon his keister for the whole of the Third Age.

During this time his minion, the Witch-King, brought about the general decline of the Northern Kingdom and the fall of the Southern line of kings.


Against this I say that the Witch-King was beaten by a girl and a halfling, and that they had not the spiritual power of Luthien, the elf/Maia hybrid in history, nor that of Huan, the greatest of hounds, who came from Valinor itself.

Moreover, Sauron's ultimate defeat was not in fact brought about by a halfling, for Frodo was overcome in the end by the Ring his creation, and it was only grace that allowed even for the chance fall of Gollum.

During the War of the Ring Sauron did indeed make hasty strokes that went awry, he was also weakened due to the fact that most of his strength had gone into his Ring. This Ring, as mentioned before, brought one of the noblest of the most stubborn, least power-hungry people, who was fully aware of what the Ring was and what power it had, to crave that very evil he sought to destroy, so that he fell in the end and though grace saved him, yet he could not enjoy the peace he had won.

Finally, Arnor and Gondor were able to rise again through the person of the King Returned, whereas Sauron destroyed Numenor, which never rose again. And not only did he bring about Numenor's physical ruin, but also its spiritual ruin, and he was able to do so simply through guile.

Therefore,

++Sauron

is the more badbottomed of the two.

Any guy who can, reduced to spirit form, pick up and carry his Ring back from under the ocean to Middle-earth is inherently awesome.

And he was a werewolf for a while. Don't forget that.

[CaptainofDespair]

++The Witch-King

Sauron is boring and lazy. He sits in his tower (or maybe the spa, who knows) and sends out his 'people' to seek out his ring.

And I adore the Witch-King and his many, many cool titles. Also, Barrow-wights.

[Morthoron]

++Sauron

Pffft! The WitchKing got beat by a girl.

*Notices the women of the Downs glaring angrily at him*

Ummm...look over there, it's Orlando Bloom!

*Quickly runs out of the room while the women ogle*

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Sauron-7 The Witch King-5

A disappointed but resolute Witch King was
seen getting on a pteradactyl with Khamul
to join the Resistance to Telcontar in South
Gondor while observing "I'll always have Angmar."

Next: Ar-Pharazon vs. Glaurung

[Andsigil]

The dragon who destroyed Gondolin vs. the man who attacked Valinor.

This is a difficult one.

However, Glaurung's actions were done out of spite and malice, whereas Ar-Pharazon's were done out of hubris. I'll have to side with the purer evil on this one.

++Glaurung

[Eönwë]

++Glaurung

As he's always been one of my favourite characters in the Silm. Evil, cunning, cruel, hypnotising and much more. Not to mention the fact that he's a dragon.

[CaptainofDespair]

++Ar-Pharazon

Because Glaurung never tried to attack Valinor.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Ar-Pharazon

Ar-Pharazon certainly had an advanced case
of Uber-hubris (arguably a "good" trait in bad guys)
while Glaurung had a more balanced sense
of how far to go (except for that unfortunate
incident at Cabed-en-Aras).

[Morthoron]

++Glaurung

Ar-Pharazon became rather feeble there at the end. Sauron turned Arphy's mind to a gelatinous consistency like Alec Baldwin does to his prey in that Hulu.com commercial.

[Durelin]

++Ar-Pharazon

His track record is much more impressive. I second CaptainofDespair...he attacked Valinor! And he's just man, a Numenorean, but still just a man... Also, I am voting for him now because Glaurung beat Thuringwethil.

[skip spence]

++Glaurung

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, those two are about as bad for me - one is a dragon with an interesting hypnotising ability, but he is such a silly worm that it's just disgraceful. Something like Shelob - slow, fat and dirty. Ar-P is, on the other hand, quite stupid. He was the victor, yea, but still... he isn't even as cool as the Men who became Nazgul - some of them were corrupt Númenoreans as well, but they at least became something interesting in the end.

I am voting

++Ar-P

for tactical reasons.

[Thinlómien]

Ar-Pharazon is plain disgusting. I kind of like the Númenorean despair and arrogance and even think it quite cool but Ar-Pharazon is too much of a brute for me to like him at all.

So

++Glaurung

He never was any special favourite of mine but you must admit his mental powers are quite frightening.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In a spellbinding contest Ar-Pharazon takes
a dive (wonder if he ever learned to swim?)
Glaurung-5 Ar-Pharazon-4[/B]

Next: Bill Ferny vs. William

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

In a spellbinding contest Ar-Pharazon takes
a dive (wonder if he ever learned to swim?)
Glaurung-5 Ar-Pharazon-4[/B]

Next: Bill Ferny vs. William

++Mr Huggins, for pure personality if nothing else. And for being the only troll with a surname.

"Poor little blighter!"

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I am torn. While I like Bill, Bill is far more interesting. On the other hand, it's true that Bill is also interesting in his own way - I mean, just look at the way he acts. As a villain, he is certainly not just "one in the row", he has some personality. But the same goes for Bill, actually.

Well, I will wait a short while with my voting yet. However, as for the matter of choosing which Bill is the best, I'd certainly say Hookbill.

[Groin Redbeard]

William is the only decent troll out of the three, so I don't see him a much of a villain; besides, there isn't a whole lot you can do with his personality. On the other hand, you have Bill Ferny, who might have been half goblin!

++Bill Ferny

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

William is the only decent troll out of the three, so I don't see him a much of a villain; besides, there isn't a whole lot you can do with his personality. On the other hand, you have Bill Ferny, who might have been half goblin!

No, he was a native Breelander! It was just his "friend" who was a half-goblin...

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, he was a native Breelander! It was just his "friend" who was a half-goblin...

*Goes back and thumbs through the books* Let's see, what does it say? *reads a couple of lines before he relives Legate was right* Thanks for pointing that out Legate; though, Bill is still better than William.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Difficult choice, but Bill does
have more of a storyline then Bill
so

+ + Bill.....(Ferny)

[the phantom]

Ferny was a slimy little punk who got pwnd by an apple.

William and company on the other hand ate half a village of people or so and sacked a dozen sturdy dwarves and would have succeeded in eating them if not for Gandalf.

Plus he initially suggested letting Bilbo go-

"Poor little blighter," said William.

Isn't that interesting for a troll to show sympathy? And when one of the others suggested holding Bilbo's toes to the fire to make him talk, William wouldn't let him.

He's a unique chap.

++William