Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Skippy

frequent visits to Nogrod

(Okay, sorry, that bolding was mine - just couldn't resist. )

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him. He's one of the most disgusting people Tolkien ever invented. Now The King of the Dead, as Tolkien describes him, is fascinating and beautiful. I like him. (No, I don't like that little green Barbossa-impersonator, he's baaad.)

So:

++ King of the Dead

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger
...
Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible!

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

I'm yet not convinced...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Several hours left to vote. So far

Eol 4
KotD 3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig

Oh, I couldn't have phrased that better, sis

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

Now actually you bring up something interesting, which would, however, almost be for a separate thread. You made me think what if the Dead did not come out and Aragorn would have stormed Pelargir just with several Lamedonians... the main problem would be still that the Corsairs would, as soon as possible, have left to the North anyway... but I thought it would have been far more cool if they started to wreak havoc around the Southern Gondor, and after the battle at Pelennor (which would have been likely a bit more disasterous, although still possible of being victorious), there will be no march to the Black Gate, but everybody would have needed to pack their stuff and go to liberate Pelargir and all the southern provinces... intriguing, I say.

And speaking of South Gondorians, this captain of theirs had a cool name - Angbor. Now that's a guy I would have liked to hear more about...

But here we are going off-topic

But come on, people - a few hours still left, doesn't anyone vote for the King of the Dead? He is nice! He has a spear! And is scaring young Rohanian princes to death! Come on!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him.

I couldn't agree more!

The King of the Dead produced the best, and most memorable, part of The Return of the King! He was even feared by a Dwarf, now that's saying something. Anyone who can make a Gimli quake in his boots has got my vote.

++The King of the Dead

[Tuor in Gondolin]

With less then an hour to go the contst
is on a knife's edge. 4-4 now, but
Eol will win this tie.
Tick. Tick. Tick.

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Eol 4
KotD 4
Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Next:
Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob in what could be
another long night for dragon power.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale. Shelob? Meh, just an arachnid bully eating orcses and little hobbits if she can get them. She's nothing like her great-grandma Ungoliant, who made even Morgoth tremble.

++Scatha the Worm

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

Counterfactual history, now you got it, sir

Okay, just briefly - not to be off-topic too much - this won't work anyway, otherwise, it will be far better for the South Gondorians to just send more troops to Minas Tirith in the first place (seeing that they have enough men themselves to cope with the Corsairs), in which case, the battle will be obviously victorious for Minas Tirith in the first place. But we needed this typical "our heroes look like they will be obviously doomed" and then this sudden turn of the tide. And this was only possible if the Corsairs were stronger. And this again needed some reinforcements to come. And the Dead were still quite a smooth way to do that, I can't think of anything better now (like I said, Elves from Lórien won't do...).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale.

Yes, unlike Ancalagon the Black, perhaps because the lack of information, Scatha is intriguing. I like him. He was nice. I liked him very "early" - short after I read LotR for the first time. He was a cold-drake, but that does not prevent him from being cool, quite the opposite And he was killed by a man from Éotheod, now isn't that great?

++Scatha

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.

I think Tuor had his son in mind.

[Thinlómien]

++Shelob

Scatha has a cool name and he reminds me of old legends like Beowulf, but I've got to be feminist and vote Shelob.

[skip spence]

I love dragons but there's just not enough info on Scatha for me to vote for him. I mean, the only adjective you could use describing him is "dead".

++Shelob

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Shelob

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

Yes! Now that sounds good. Although, isn't it unfair for Bert to be outed when Tom and Bill are around? At least I like him more than Tom. I say, you shouldn't make too many changes in the lists anyway... let it be as it is... but of course, for this one minor change...

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

Well, you know, I wouldn't do so. I think it will be quite unfair to the others. He will be too much different from most of those who are here, and he's been in one tournament already, and also... he is not bad, he is good

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Scatha has a cool name and he reminds me of old legends like Beowulf, but I've got to be feminist and vote Shelob.

Hey, but what if Scatha was a she? Now wouldn't that be even cooler than some silly spider?

Speaking of silly spiders: why were not Lazy Lob and Crazy Cob inculded? They were cuute!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hey, but what if Scatha was a she? Now wouldn't that be even cooler than some silly spider?

His name sounds masculine, except that it resembles Scathatch (aiee not spelt that way, I know ).

But I always kind of liked Shelob anyway.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

His name sounds masculine, except that it resembles Scathatch (aiee not spelt that way, I know ).

What? Sasquatch?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What? Sasquatch?

Nope, Scáthatch.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nope, Scáthatch.

I have to confess, a Hobbit? Neverr heard aabout ahobbit befoore... (too bad. Too bad.)

Nevertheless, I always liked what happened to Scatha's teeth - also pretty cool story.

And speaking of Scáthatch, I started to wonder about the etymology of Scatha's name - is it possible that it had something to do with "Shadow", after all, too? Or did Tolkien say anything more? Was it supposed to reflect the language of the Éotheod, who were, after all, the ones who encountered him? Okay, I see I would be starting another thread again...

[Eönwë]

I vote

++Scatha
I would vote for Ungoliant, but not Shelob. And dragons are amazing!

[Andsigil]

++Scatha, because he would eat Shelob for a snack.

[the phantom]

They're both big and bad.

We know more about Shelob, so I'll vote for her.

But no, Scatha could probably burn her up. I'll vote for him.

But wait, that whole Shelob bit in LotR is so memorable. I'll vote for her.

But gah- dragons are cool, and spiders are creepy and gross. I'll vote for him.

*flips coin*

++Scatha

[Nogrod]

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In stunning news to the arachnid world
Scatha the Worm ousted heavy
favorite Shelob 6-3, raising the
real possibility of three dragons in the
Sweet Sixteen, although both Smaug
and the Father of Dragons (makes you
wonder who the mother was ) will
face some stiff competition.

Next match:
the White Cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom
(can a hoard of cats take out a troll obviously
born within the sound of Bow Bells ?

[A Little Green]

The cats of Queen Beruthiel must be among the most intriguing barely-mentioned stories included in the LotR. I would have loved to know more about them. Besides, cats are wonderful creatures. I adore them. So:

++ the White Cats

And I have to comment on the off-topic discussion going on here: the Army of the Dead was essential for getting rid of the Corsairs, but what were the Corsairs for? Tolkien could have left them out if he had wanted to, with no serious damage to his plot.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

And I have to comment on the off-topic discussion going on here: the Army of the Dead was essential for getting rid of the Corsairs, but what were the Corsairs for? Tolkien could have left them out if he had wanted to, with no serious damage to his plot.

Well, they were there in order to make Sauron's armies being stronger than Gondor, and disallowing Minas Tirith getting all reinforcements it could - so that somebody may come and save it all with sudden change of winds, just like Aragorn did with the Dead So, you see, it's a sort of infinite circle.

Anyway - to the task at hand - while Tom is, of all the three trolls, the most stupid (in my opinion, and now thinking not about the intellect, but about the general behavior) and the one I really don't like much, still, he is a Troll, and I like him more than the cats. I am not a huge fan of the tale of the cats, I never found it particularly interesting. Not at all, in fact. I am also voting him a bit as a deputy of his fellow Bert, who, unfortunately, did not make it among the candidates. So,

++Tom the Troll

(I hope everybody understands that Tuor meant this one, and not the other fella with the same name and yellow boots Hey, isn't it interesting how some names reoccur, a pity we don't have two Berts as well...)

[Morthoron]

++Tom the Troll

Although I think William and Bert should have been included as a trio, sort of the Three Stooges of Middle-earth. Soitanly, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Although I think William and Bert should have been included as a trio, sort of the Three Stooges of Middle-earth. Soitanly, nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!

Soitenly!
Tom (definitely not Tom Bombadil):
"Bert, William, the cheese!"
"Bert, William, the cheese!"

[Andsigil]

Cats??? Please...

++Tom the Troll, all the way. I can't wait to see the trio of trolls in "The Hobbit" film.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I can't wait to see the trio of trolls in "The Hobbit" film.

Now you actually made me worry a lot. If they are going to look like that tortoise from FotR, or more likely, like Shrek, or in either case, they will be some sort of horrible CG thing... eww. Another good reason not to expect the Hobbit movie.

If they at least found a tall and fat actor and put some mask on him... but not CG, it looks so horrible and overdone...

[Eönwë]

++Tom
A cat?
A cat?
A cat?
Shh... it's only a model.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If they at least found a tall and fat actor and put some mask on him... but not CG, it looks so horrible and overdone...

Agreed. An actor with a nice paint job would be much better than anything they will accomplish with CG. That said, don't be overly pessimistic. It might just become a decent enough movie, who can tell?

++Tom

[Eönwë]

I've just realised... no Ungwë Lianti... I mean... Ungoliant?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!

Oh my! That was my 5000th post! And I missed any celebrations!

But to the topic.

I like cats as well as Greenie but c'mon there's no question on this one

++ Tom

But I would like to wonder about the sanity (or evilness) of the mod setting such marvellous characters up against each other on the previous rounds and now presenting us with this choice. To be earnest, both candidates on this round would have lost to anyone on the previous ones...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Agreed. An actor with a nice paint job would be much better than anything they will accomplish with CG. That said, don't be overly pessimistic. It might just become a decent enough movie, who can tell?

You are right, one can always hope for the good result coming out of that. Though still, in any case, it will be just a movie. Ah well.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But I would like to wonder about the sanity (or evilness) of the mod setting such marvellous characters up against each other on the previous rounds and now presenting us with this choice. To be earnest, both candidates on this round would have lost to anyone on the previous ones...

I thought exactly the other way around. Now there are coming candidates I really start to like, I didn't really care that much about those before.

[Groin Redbeard]

I hate cats! Besides, the trolls offer good comic relief.

++Tom

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + White Cats

Because if they lose it might be necessary to
think of 101 things to do with them.

[Aganzir]

++Catsies

Because I feel more like voting for a cat than a troll now.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

White Cats of Queen Beruthiel -3
Tom - 7

One of the cats was heard to hiss as she left:

"Death is but a door. Time is but a window. I'll be back."

Btw, about the seeding pitting strong candidates against each
other in the first round, I sympathize- and probably objectively
agree- but the reasoning was twofold a) to give longshots a
punchers chance of advancing several rounds, and b) to mitigate
favorites getting virtual byes and make the start of the contest
in the first round overall more competitive. I think the actual effect
is probably minimal, making rounds 1,3,4 the more competitive as
contrasted to 2,3, 4 in more usual seeding.

OOPS! Next up is one of those tough first round matches:
Smaug vs. Drauglin

About Smaug:

"To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all. There is no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful."

"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him. [...] His rage passes description - the sort of rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted. His fire belched forth, the hall smoked, he shook the mountain-roots. [...] He issued from the Gate, the waters rose in fierce whistling steam, and up he soared blazing into the air and settled on the mountain-top in a spout of green and scarlet flame."

About Drauglin:

A dread beast, old in evil lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband.

A mightier shadow slowly filled
the narrow bridge, a slavering hate,
an awful werewolf fierce and great:
pale Draugluin, the old grey lord
of wolves and beasts of blood abhorred,
that fed on flesh of Man and Elf
beneath the chair of Thû himself.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Draugluin stands no chance.

++Smaug

This one was a no-brainer. Smaug! Smaug! Hail Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities!

[Aganzir]

Well for a dragon Smaug is an okay chap... But my general opinion on dragons is no secret.

++Draugluin

I'm not even that fond of wolves, but werewolves are certainly better than some dragons.