T-I-G LV Sing when you're winning

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Boro

Or how about just both?

I have looked at both. But in the end, it's the Menel voters I find more suspicious. The votes against Noggie (heh, I almost wrote Noogie there) seem more reasonable to me. Of course, I know I'm biased because I voted Nogrod myself. But it's probably in the same way you as a Menel voter are biased.

So, the votes:

Cailin: ++Nogrod

First vote of the Day...her vote post was her only post, so I can't read from it. But it's not particularly suspicious.

Mac: ++Menel

Probably the least suspicious of the Menel voters. His suspicions of him came from the beginning. He voted so early, I doubt he was expecting any sort of bandwagon to occur.

Gwath: ++Nogrod

The two did have a brief scuffle earlier in the Day, so his vote doesn't exactly surprise me. On Day 1 when there aren't strong candidates, any sort of negative interaction with a player can result in a lynch vote.

Shasta: ++tgwbs

Came out of the blue, no explanation. I'd like to hear one when he shows up.

tgwbs: ++Fea

In the post before, he said he wouldn't vote her. And then he does. Why the Legate 180? (yes I'm still using that phrase )

Lariren: ++Ilya

Vote is based on a hunch. Not a strong reasoning, but common for Day One. I'm not worried about her vote.

Fea: ++Menel

Says there's no one else she wants to lynch. Not exactly strong reasoning.

Boro: ++Mac

Says earlier that he doesn't like Mac's vote for Menel.

Brinn: ++Nogrod

Best option of those who already received a vote, plus as I mentioned, Menel was being talked about and I didn't want him lynched. Honestly, I don't think I had great reason behind my vote and on Day 1; I never do. I often do get suspected for my vote and hey, I can't really blame you people...so I won't argue it too much.

Kath: ++Ilya

Seems to suspect her consistently, so nothing unusual jumps out to me.

Sally: ++Nogrod

Of the Nogrod votes, it is her's that looks most bandwaggonish, I think. What I find interesting is that she joins the "suspect Menel" bandwagon earlier and puts him highest on her lynch list, yet votes Nogrod. I can't help but wonder if she did this to make herself look good (by saying she's voting him to prevent a double lynch).

Ilya: ++Strongbow

Based on feeling, his posts seem abrasive. Her vote doesn't have strong reasoning, but that's not what worries me. She spread out the votes even more at a critical time which seems rather safe.

Boromir: --Mac/++Menel

Sort of indicates he'll make an explanation later, though he hasn't yet. I find it very interesting that he originally voted Mac for his Menel vote, then he changes his vote to Menel himself. No explanation, but my guess is to "save" Nogrod.

Aganzir: ++Nogrod

She suspected him all Day, so her vote is no surprise.

tgwbs: --Fea/++Menel

Another "save" Nogrod vote I'm guessing?

Sally: --Nogrod/++Menel

Tried and failed to prevent a double lynch from occurring. Looks pretty innocent, but then again she could be trying to make herself look good.

Non voters:

Strongbow: Seems to have missed the deadline, which happens.

Gollum: Was there at deadline, but chose not to vote due to lack of time. Choosing not to vote is one thing, and if it's a one-time thing I don't mind. But he abstained at a critical time when it looked like a double lynch was possible...I don't care who he would've voted for, he had the opportunity to prevent the double lynch and he didn't do anything.

About this whole "save Nogrod" thing...

It seems that came up when his whole divo comment was brought up via secret code talk. Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo? I don't think he'd be so obvious. It seems to me that this whole discussion which resulted in a switch of votes to Menel was just another ploy. Probably someone has intentions behind the ploy to misguide the wolves, but at the same time I think it's just as likely someone else has intentions to misguide everyone else. So the people who were involved:
tp
Fea
Boro
tgwbs
...Might be innocent or might be guilty. Whatever they are, I'll be watching them...with the exception of tp, for obvious reasons.

So based on votes, in order of suspicious to least suspicious:
tgwbs
Boro
Ilya
Sally
Fea
Gollum
Shasta
Kath
Lariren
Aganzir
Mac
Cailin
Gwath
Strongbow

Also, I must mention I did a double take on Cailin's post toDay because at first I thought it was Shasta which made me really confused. Apparently their avatars are very similar in colour. So apologies if I mix you two up again. But goodness, I should've figured it out immediately what with the Eomer references.

Btw, while I was writing this post I got interrupted by Grey's Anatomy, and on top that I have a headache. I can't even remember everything I wrote I wrote in this post or whether I'm forgetting something I meant to say. And I'm sure I'll x-post with many others, but I don't feel well enough to care..

[the phantom]

A question for Sally...

Quite often you are such an English major. Correcting things, you know. If you type something wrong, you must fix it! You're very consistent about it.

So, if I spot a grammar or spelling mistake from you, should I assume it is intentional?

Answer choices-
A) Ummm... huh?
B) *wink*

Originally Posted by Fea

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys? Was it specified that dead-but-still-talking OG is on anybody's side but his own?

Yes, I'm on my own side in a way.

No, no- I won't be attempting to mislead you (lynch wrong). Not at all. I will give honest commentary on the songs you weave, but I shall refrain from all out attack or defense. I will interact though. I may even attempt to stir some things up.

Basically, you all can trust me. But I will not throw my weight around.

I will certainly post YouTube links though.

Touch me, trust me
Savour each sensation

[Boromir88]

Does the Cobbler/Spy get to find out the role of the person s/he spies on, or is that information given only to the Critics?~Fea

I can't see how the cobbler would be able to pass on info that xe didn't know xeself. (Did I use that properly?) That would make a giant continuity problem within the fabric of the performance.

Only my fellows could convince me otherwise (which is why you lived past Day1 in our last village together ).~Mac

So, is that what happened again last night?

Sort of indicates he'll make an explanation later, though he hasn't yet.~Brinn

Nobody asked...if and when someone does, I would ask that the say "please."

I did tell a lie, that well I should probably come clean with now since it's done and over. Not exactly a lie, more of an exaggeration, but I think it worked - or at least if I'm fooled I will have a clear conscience.

Mac's vote for Menel yesterday reminded me of his prior wolvery and denial about how he ever made a "case" against Brinn. But after stating Day 1 concerns I backed off for the rest of the game, only to be completely manhandled by him the rest of the time. I spent many a night beating myself up for never following up. So, whenever I next saw Mac make a move I thought suspicious, I promised myself I would go through with it. I did, and if he's running me around in circles again, at least I followed through this time, and can feel better about it. Basically, my vote for Mac had no good reason other than to make myself feel better for a prior mistake.

Edit: crossed with Lari

[Boromir88]

Beautiful analysis if I may say so myself Lari

The only thing I get is a growing animocity between Gwath and Nog from this page.

That is something I meant to check up on, after Ilya said:

The first three were the ones that really were instrumental on taking the Gwath/Nog opening sparring (which, when you look at it, is really nothing at all) and snowballing it.

The three that Ilya is referring to are Sally, Agan, and Lari.

I wanted to check up on it because there seems to be a significant contradiction. Ilya says it was blown out of proportions, others have made it out to be a high noon duel.

Which then got me thinking, I really miss the old fire pits, of intense, passionate battles. And that got me thinking, there's been a lot of tentativeness, I'm not remembering any significant sparring of singer vs. singer. Maybe, I'm partially to blame, because I'm slightly crazy and aggressive, but have been a little reserve.

Also, what's been off about Agan, is I know she's pretty feisty too when she gets going, so far I've gotten a laying back, commentary impression. I want a duel, who's up for one?

Those I will refuse to duel are tp, Lari, tgwbs, Mac, and Fea, either because I have no reason to or they could smoke me in a duel and I'd lose. I would welcome a challenge though from Agan, Brinn, or Shasta.

But, before that I ask you let me check up on this contradiction on whether there was much between the Gwath v. Nog yesterday, or if we had people who blew it out of proportion.

Edit: crossed with sally

[Boromir88]

Alright, so the Gwath v. Nogrod yesterday. The actual sparring seemed to be an argument over semantics, thus an argument over meaningless crap. Nogrod asks a question, says it's not an accusation, Gwath says oh but it is, but there is a bit of them ole fire pits between the two that I do see.

So, my question for Ilya, is why did you try to down play it?

Agan, Lari, and sally do use that against Nog, in effect, "snowballing" this vague feeling of discomfort around Nogrod.

And my question for you three is why did you snowball it?

There Brinn is why I'm looking at the Nogrod voters. The origins of the Menel suspiciouns we pretty lousy, but at least there was reason there for some concern.

The origins of the Nogrod suspicion was based off some gut feeling of discomfort and Nog seems "off." Isn't that an even more generic reason, and I don't even care if it's Day 1, that's just baloney.

And finally my question for you Brinn:

One thing: It's really bothering me that almost everyone is focusing on Nogrod's death alone. What about Menel?

Why all the big deal about people who were making a big deal about the Nogrod voters?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Alright, so the Gwath v. Nogrod yesterday. The actual sparring seemed to be an argument over semantics, thus an argument over meaningless crap.

I disagree. The argument, or the issue in question, from my perspective, had to do with what lay behindsemantics. It seemed to me that Nogrod had posed a question in an aggressive way and then tried to string me up for responding in kind. It was necessary to establish certain semantic facts in order to solve the question of whether he had indeed been accusing me, albeit in question form, and therefore whether my defensive response was merited. So, you see, while we were arguing semantics, that was not ultimately what was at stake.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The origins of the Nogrod suspicion was based off some gut feeling of discomfort and Nog seems "off." Isn't that an even more generic reason, and I don't even care if it's Day 1, that's just baloney.

It seemed to me that as the Day wore on, fewer and fewer people were actually reading the argument we'd had and that they were getting their idea of it from what other people had said about it. That's happened to me before, two games ago I think, where something I've said (or not said) gets talked about enough that it takes on a significance and meaning apart from and greater than the fact itself. I rather think that's what happened here. Enough people talked about our argument that it became a greater issue than it necessarily was by nature. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Ilya]

Gwath: Your take on other people's reaction to the argument rings true to me. I certainly didn't go back and read it until today, and, to answer Boro's question, the whole thing took up like 4 posts on the thread between Gwath and Nog before other people ran with it. The actually interaction between the two of them didn't seem that big to me, is probably a more accurate way to put. I didn't mean to downplay the authenticity of their argument.

Lariren is officially awesome, and that analysis was very good indeed.

Brinn: You say that my vote was based on feeling, but so was yours. I'm regretting it now, not only because Bowie seems less suspicious but because I hadn't realized Menel and Nog were running so close in the vote tally and I could have done something about that. Those last 15 minutes were one big klutz-fest.

Brief thoughts before I go to bed:
Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

I kinda don't get Wild Man's suspicion of Brinn. She stayed on point with her suspicions, and was consistent about not wanting Menel lynched. Today she's pushing for analysis of Menel's death, though I think it's legit because of how much early attention Nog got.

Agan might just be the victim of bad timing, and she certainly experienced enough to see what the nog/gwath argument was about, but something's telling me that kind of Day 1 argument does nothing but stir up discussion and nobody should really take the inciting incident that seriously. It seems like it's always ordos who want to start stuff, and the wolves who jump on it later. Does that make any sense?

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Fea

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys? Was it specified that dead-but-still-talking OG is on anybody's side but his own?

I was wondering the same thing. Sure, tp can tell us he's on our side, but how do we know that for sure. At this point, tp's just playing for the fun of it, which means he can manipulate us in any way he wants, whether it's for good or bad. And that's exactly what I'd expect from him. While he cannot vote, we all know how much tp loves to tell us what to do. Since his alliances may shift on a Day to Day basis, all the more reason not to listen to him.

Originally Posted by Boro

Nobody asked...if and when someone does, I would ask that the say "please."

Alright then, would you please give a detailed explanation as to why you retracted your vote and voted Menel instead? I already somewhat guessed you reasons, but I don't know for sure if that's accurate and I'd like to hear the explanation in your words.

Originally Posted by Boro

Those I will refuse to duel are tp, Lari, tgwbs, Mac, and Fea, either because I have no reason to or they could smoke me in a duel and I'd lose. I would welcome a challenge though from Agan, Brinn, or Shasta.

Oh, while I'd love to duel you Boro, let us save it for another Day. While I do find you somewhat suspicious with your voting, some of your posts make me feel otherwise. In other words, you're not my lynching priority right now, so therefore I have no reason to duel you. And besides, I won't be here much longer toDay....

Originally Posted by Boro

Why all the big deal about people who were making a big deal about the Nogrod voters?

There's nothing wrong with looking at the Nogrod voters. Not at all. The big deal was that at the time, most players were solely focusing on the Nogrod voters and seemed to forget that Menel was also lynched.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Brinn: You say that my vote was based on feeling, but so was yours.

Yes, but as I said, it's not the reasoning behind your vote that bothers me, but who you voted for and what time you made it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I apologize for my inactivity toDay. It was the first day of classes of the new semester, and quite stressful. It is now four in the morning. I will post more when I wake up.

I would like to say, however, that apart from one thing that he said that made me raise an eyebrow, my vote for TGWBS was mostly a gut feeling.

[Brinniel]

Okay, some thoughts:

Sally: Haven't heard much from her toDay, surprisingly. YesterDay she was given some attention as a possible candidate. I wouldn't put it past her to make a wolf-Sally look good in the eyes of other players by doing everything in her power to prevent a double lynch. I don't think missing the deadline for her retraction was at all intentional, but I don't think her votes mean she's necessarily innocent and I'm disappointed in anyone who assumes otherwise.

Lariren: There are a lot of flaws in her posts, but it looks to me like typical newbie behaviour. If she's a critic, I would think she'd be partnered with some very experienced players to balance it out. But she looks pretty innocent to me.

Fea: Is a mixed bag. She's obviously trying to mislead someone...the question is whether she's trying to mislead the critics or mislead us...

Kath : Hasn't said much toDay, but says she'll be back (probably by the time I'm gone). So far, she seems pretty sensible and innocent to me.

Aganzir: Yay, it seems we're actually agreeing with each other. Of course, that doesn't mean she's innocent. But she hasn't said anything suspicious so far, so I have no reason to suspect her. However, I will keep an eye on her.

Gwath: Seems like his typical self. Looks alright to me.

Shasta: I want to hear more from him and he says he'll be back later, but once again, I'll probably be gone by then. I do feel sorry that he's already back in school. My classes don't start until the 20th!

Strongbow: I really need to hear more from him.

Mac: Funny, I x-posted with him with a post that seemed to be in a similar format...yet we came to completely different conclusions. Some of his opinions about the voting just seems odd, which makes me feel uneasy. YesterDay I felt okay about him, but toDay I'm getting some bad vibes.

Gollum: Hasn't shown up yet toDay. I understand he was behind yesterDay, but some of the posts he made indicate he was reading the most recent posts and should've known it was close between two candidates. Even if he didn't have a strong opinion on either, voting for someone who turns out to be innocent is better than letting a double lynch occur in my opinion. If he had abstained early in the Day, or his vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, it's not quite so bad. But he was there at a time where every vote was critical and at that point had read at least part of the Day...so I find the fact that he chose not to rather upsetting.

tgwbs: I found his voting yesterDay most suspicious, and I don't feel any better about his posts toDay. He's one of those who solely focused on Noggie's lynching, and I disagree with some of his suspicions. Also, why does he think tp being around makes up for the double lynch? It's still a loss in numbers.

Boromir : As I already said before, I don't at all like his voting record, but his posts don't look overly suspicious. Specifically #310, which has good reasoning behind his thoughts. Nevertheless, I do want to keep a close eye on him.

Cailineomer: I really need to hear more from either of them...two posts is just not enough. Though from the little we've heard so far, nothing suspicious.

So...

Suspicious:
Gollum
tgwbs
Mac

Somewhat Suspicious:
Boromir
Sally

No Idea:
Fea
Aganzir
Shasta
Strongbow

Leaning Innocentish:
Cailineomer

Innocentish:
Lariren
Gwath

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Agan, Lari, and sally do use that against Nog, in effect, "snowballing" this vague feeling of discomfort around Nogrod.

And my question for you three is why did you snowball it?

My answer is I didn't mean to nor did I intend to. I thought that Nog was special, not a critic though. I was actually more suspicious of Gwath in the whole thing, but then read what others were saying and about how that was Nog's usual behavior and how it would make him more of a critic than anyone else so that's why I made the comment.

Long way around. Now I need to go and look at most of the other posts and see about who is saying what.

[Aganzir]

Ha I just realised I was at least right about something when listing phantom as neither guilty nor innocent yesterday.

Originally Posted by Mac

But Aganzir, we've been wolves together once: you know that, when evil, I give every effort to appear the exact same way I do when innocent...

I know! But they still remind me of wolfish you.
However from now on I promise to try to come up with some actual reasons for my suspicions because my gut suspicions against sally in last game were disastrous. (This doesn't mean I'd withdraw my Mac suspicions yet though.)

Originally Posted by Ilya

Bowie's doesn't seem intimidated by more experienced players, and since TP wasn't a huge subject of discussion on Day 1, aside from his cryptic playing with Fea, it might've seemed like as good a time as any to remove the threat.

I still fail to see your logic. Why wouldn't anyone else enjoy killing phantom then? Also his post today didn't help me understand his logic much (or well I understand it but I disagree with him). I'm not fond of deciding which is more important to kill first, cobbler of critics.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Aganzir - Wild Man no understand why she vote so late. She present long before last-minute vote. Why late vote?

Because I didn't realise what time it was until 25 past. I was reading through the thread and trying to decide who to vote. Plus I always vote rather late if I'm around for deadline.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Also, she should know not kill Nog day 1 for normal behaviour!

Nog behaves similarly enough when wolf so why should 'normal behaviour' make him innocent? I still think he was suspicious yesterday.

Originally Posted by Boro

May I ask Agan, did your involvement in your last game wear you down a bit?

I don't think so but school start certainly did. I'm a bit too tired to come up with anything original, and thus far I've only been able to be online a couple of hours when the day has started just to return two or three hours before deadline.

Originally Posted by Brinn on Mac

Probably the least suspicious of the Menel voters. His suspicions of him came from the beginning.

Yeah, in the beginning he said Menel was too careful. I didn't think so so I can't right away see where he was coming from. His own vote was rather easy.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

(I'm laughing at that Brinn qut)

Sorry Boro I won't duel you at least for now.

Originally Posted by Boro

And my question for you three is why did you snowball it?

Because I didn't like it. It looked like Nog was provoking Gwath to incriminate himself.

I don't like Gollum getting votes today. It's too easy.

See? I have this little to say.

Besides I have no idea who I will vote today.

Sorry I'm just so tired. I'll try to do something useful.

edit: xed with phantom

[Boromir88]

In these sorts of situations I generally take a blind shot at a submarine.~tp

Usually I would say that's playing it safe, and to win you can't footsy around, you have to go for the juggular. But this time I will agree, we have a couple more assets (and thus more people we don't want to lynch). Also, I remember the big downfall for the wolves in The Republic was the unexpected surprise in the lynching of a submarine - The Ka. That opened the door of you and I to make our moves.

So, in this set up, at this time, I say safe route is a good choice to go.

That should be a bit of comfort to those of you who fear Fea or Boro- if they aren't Critics then they'll be Night killed rather soon.

Come on tp, don't spill out all my plans! I have always been a good keeper of yours, or at least I hope I have.

*Note: By me saying this now lets see what the Critics will make of this little move. Walk in, I dare 'em.

[Aganzir]

Guilty
sally. No she isn't a top suspect, I'm just copying the names in the order they are on Mith's list. She's been playing rather conveniently and I want to go through her posts to form a proper opinion.
Fea. I'm wary of her. The questions concerning phantom and cobbler tgwbs quoted in #329 were something a critic Fea could say.
Mac. I'm not feeling very confident but he's my top suspect right now. I'm planning to go through his posts at some point.
tgwbs. Probably because I so often find that my opinion is the complete opposite to his. I wouldn't be surprised if either Fea or him was a wolf.

Innocent
Lari is leaning innocent. Her analysis was nice.
Brinn. I'm agreeing with her scarily much given how much I often disagree with her. Anyway she's the one I'm feeling the most comfortable with for the time being.
Boro is another one I'm feeling quite good about now.

Neither
Ilya. I don't understand her logic concerning Bowie and why he'd kill phantom, and I also can't see why she was less suspicious of him after knowing why he didn't vote. Why is not voting suspicious in the first place? Apart from that I don't know, except that she suspected me.
Kath is slipping under my radar.
Gwath. Hmm I think he's rather innocentish but right now I can't remember anything he has said, apart from he & Nog's quarrel yesterday.
Shasta is nowhere to be seen.
Bowie. I don't like to make any plans as for which baddie is more important to find first and therefore his concentrating on it yesterday seems odd to me. Apart from that there's quite little to go on.
Gollum is nowhere to be seen.
Cailineomer. Too little to go on.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Also, you didn't exactly share what you thought of this "Saving Private Nogrod" act. Perhaps you stated your opinions elsewhere, but I'm not going to bother looking again through your posts at this hour.

A couple of persons were uncomfortable with lynching Nogrod and voted/retracted in order to save him. While a critic might do so to make himself look good henceforth, given that Nogrod was an ordo, I think trying to save him was an innocent affair. Too bad Menel had to suffer for it.

Originally Posted by Sally

Yes, and you're brilliant at it. Too brilliant, in fact, and from being your partner before I know just how dangerous you can be, little mister.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

However, Wild Man think unwise vote Gollum. Currently, suspicion of Gollum base on lack of input, which poor reason Day 2.

Wild man = Wise man.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

A question for Sally...

Quite often you are such an English major. Correcting things, you know. If you type something wrong, you must fix it! You're very consistent about it.

So, if I spot a grammar or spelling mistake from you, should I assume it is intentional?

Answer choices-
A) Ummm... huh?
B) *wink*

Erm....bwah???? (Aka option A)


Sorry I've been gone so long. I got hijacked by some friends (okay, it was my idea but one of them is super-talkative so it took a while longer than I'd expected) to watch The Princess Bride and I didn't get to make a post. Onto it now, but I can't promise it will be by any means brilliant. Back soon.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

No. Like I said, I thought the phantom was special, not Nog, but that the phantom was using Nog as a way to hint without being too obvious. Remember the exchange where he was like, "Wait, you didn't mean Nogrod. In that case, yeah, definitely."? I took that as a clue that I was on the right track: that he hadn't been talking about Nog per se, but that he'd been using Nog to talk about himself.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Basically, you all can trust me. But I will not throw my weight around.

Even that pesky cobbler, huh?

J/K, in case anybody gets too stirred up. I just like knowing all the answers, you know? It irritates me in a really highly irrational way not to know how many players are on each 'side.' And then I remember J.K. Rowling writing "Harry, the world isn't made up of only good guys and Death Eaters" or whatever the exact wording was...

Originally Posted by Boro

I can't see how the cobbler would be able to pass on info that xe didn't know xeself. (Did I use that properly?) That would make a giant continuity problem within the fabric of the performance.

Cobbler sends choice to Mith, Mith sends choice to Critics. I envision it sort of like the Cobbler picks up a packet of information which xe never gets to read. Of, of course, Cobbler PMs Mith, Mith PMs back, Mith PMs Cobbler. I know Mith used the phrase 'blind drop' and I assume that means that the Cobbler doesn't get to PM the Critics (that the Cobbler doesn't know their identity) but I just wondered if it meant that the Cobbler doesn't actually know the info that xe is acquiring.

Originally Posted by B88

Beautiful analysis if I may say so myself Lari

Yes, I totally agree. Informative, concise, and without triggering my ADD reaction like a list of quotes always, always does. Psh, Newbie... You're fair game now.

Originally Posted by Boro again...

Why all the big deal about people who were making a big deal about the Nogrod voters?

Is this rhetorical? I can't help but agree with Brinn. Since during the whole of my thing with the phantom yesterday, I never particularly thought Nog was a bad guy, I watched people jump him with confusion. Of course I knew that singling him out might be harmful, but that's a werewolf truism, and since he was the major example the phantom had brought to my attention, I figured if I had any hope of tp understanding what point I was driving at, I shouldn't start making things up and hope for the best.

So while my vote for Menel was a typical Day 1 style vote from me (is there anybody here that doesn't know my complete derision for Day One votes? It's a bunch of uninformed people making determinative decisions based on (if they're ordo) absolutely nothing that can - in a scientific environment - be called fact. Hence, it irritates me much the same way teaching ID in a bio classroom 'because you can't prove it isn't true' irritates me.)...

While my Menel vote was basically, "Well, I went down a list and couldn't find a better option..." it was weird seeing everybody jump on Nog given that his only real stand out action of the game was hinting that he might indeed be a good guy.

Hence the reason people are curious about the bandwagon onto Nog. Now my suggestion for that is that a Critic voted Nog early (I don't think late, due to the flurry of cross-posts: it strikes me as odd that a Critic would draw that much attention to his/her own lynch-pin vote on the first day of the game), or that it was a bunch of misguided villagers.

So I do understand why everybody wants to trace Nog's descent into hell, but I'm also curious why people followed up on my admittedly random Menel vote. "I can't think of anybody better" is nothing at all like "He did something suspicious." So in a tie-race between two ordos wherein the voters were trying their best to save one by killing the other, when it turns out that seriously, neither of them were Gifted? On day one?

The person I find most interesting at the moment, actually, looking back over the votes and the timing, is Sally.

Sal, have you said why you retracted? My only interest in the timing of it was purely practical: yesterday at Day End I wanted to know if it counted. But today, though it didn't count, I want to know why you tried saving Nog when, as it turns out, he was no more important than Menel.

Originally Posted by Ilya

It seems like it's always ordos who want to start stuff, and the wolves who jump on it later. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense, but I'm not sure if I agree. It makes sense because if a wolf jumps onto an idea after an Ordo, it can't be directly traced back to them: they can say, "But it seemed like so-and-so really knew what they were talking about, and I'd thought the same, so when somebody backed up my suspicion - so sorry it was wrong - it seemed obvious that I should vote the same way" or whatever.

At the same time, I've seen situations where wolves start stuff just to cause enough trouble so that people have to look at everybody, not just one or two people.

But I do basically agree with you: typically it's misguided ordos who mess things up. As a historical footnote, it makes me think of civilians listening to war time propaganda: with the informed people nudging people's opinions, the ordos can't entirely be blamed for mistaking fake stuff as fact.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Sure, tp can tell us he's on our side, but how do we know that for sure.

Well, if we find out if he either always tells the truth or always tells a lie, then we should ask him what the guy next to him would say because then either way the answer is a lie because the guy telling the truth would quote the liar with the lie, and the liar would be lying, so...

/Labyrinth.

Dear David Bowie: I am still in love with your makeup. ♥me.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Since his alliances may shift on a Day to Day basis, all the more reason not to listen to him.

On a more-serious-than-movie-reference note, isn't this essentially what we do even when he's not OG? We know he wasn't a critic, and we know he wasn't The Cobbler, but just as if he was still playing, we don't know his priorities (apart from 'himself') and we know he has no special other knowledge he can give us. So I propose this: it's dangerous to assume he's a declared innocent, because he's not: he's a declared OG, which, if you've watched the musical/movie or read the book, Erik was a nutjob serial killer with an absolute skill at torture and manipulate. The trapdoor king. So I propose: we listen to him about as much as we normally do: if his suggestions seem reasonable, we take a shot. If he sounds a bit too much like himself, we skip it.

Everybody follow?

Originally Posted by Mith

Has the power to attack one other once at any later part of the game. Not obliged to use power - little wild card.

Does xe die if xe uses this power (sort of like a Hunter, I'm thinking)?

And is it made public? Like, if one soulmate kicks it, and they're marked out as 'a soulmate died' and the other one decides to use this wild card, as you call it, will there be a narration like "The other soulmate, Player X, killed off Player Y to make up for the death of X's soulmate, Z" or will it be like "Player Y has been killed"?

Originally Posted by TGWBS

All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

This creeps me out, Wild Man. Because 1) there's not really any such thing as objectivity, but more importantly 2) the phantom doesn't have any special knowledge that we know of, so anything he says is just as likely to be dead wrong as anything any of the rest of us say. So saying we can all trust him is like saying we can all trust pre-death Nog, or pre-death Menel (examples used because roles are now known). We can trust that the phantom isn't a Critic, but we can't trust that his viewpoints will be of any aid to anybody but the Moddess, who shall be amused by them.

Originally Posted by Sally

I want to think about who would have killed Phantom in more detail, but it's too early, so I'll have to get to it in the Night.

Everybody?

No, but I do agree: later (after I eat) I intend to take a look see about what might draw people to TP (apart from his native egoism).

Originally Posted by Sally

Yes, but you have to remember that our dear Mac is a smooth one. In fact, that's why the littlest thing sets me off about him, because I've been in his pack before and know how clever he can be. I'm just saying.

Ditto that. My first game with Mac we were packmates and we - rather obviously, I must say - won. And another time I played with him, he was a wolf, and he had me totally fooled. Mac keeps me neurotic.

That said, I don't think he's a bad guy in this game. Watch me be wrong...

--

Wow, so finally caught up...

I love going to bed and finding so much to read in the morning. It gives me something to wake up to, my lovelies, please don't desist.