Beorn

[Gordis]

Hmm... I thought Pitchwife was suggesting Radagast's romance with a she-bear, not a comely woman of the mountains....

[The Might]

Wait... what?
No, I thought with some woman.
Maia + Bear = Magician ?!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The possibility of the Beornings being descended of Radagast... now, that's an interesting thought. I'm still too flu muddled to want to go digging out and digging through the HoME books to find the reference, but I believe that somewhere in it is the statement that the longer the Ainur remained in a specific hroa, and the more they followed the ways of the hroa -- eating, drinking, and especially reproducing -- the more they became bound to flesh and could not easily return to their original state, or shift to another shape. That was part of Melkor's problem, and it would also appear to be part of why Melian was never the same after she left her body when Thingol died. The Istari are something of an unusual situation, since the particular bodily state in which they existed in the Third Age was imposed on them as a condition of their mission, and were real bodies, not the self-incarnate bodies a Maia would make to appear to and interact with the Eruhini. I would expect that the effects of being in that kind of hroa would not be quite the same as the effects of being in a self-incarnate fana/hroa, and thus would have different limitations. Some, we know, were quite profound, specifically designed and intended to limit their powers so that they would not be tempted to dominate and force the wills of the Children by their own might revealed. But I suppose it might be possible that Radagast/Aiwendil (who was indeed a Maia of Yavanna) had found ways to use the abilities of changing shape and hue early on in their mission, was good at it, and thus got a reputation. If he, as a shape-shifter (also early on), wandering the woods and wilds as a bear, had met a human woman with whom he had... er... relations (as a human, not as a bear), they might have had a child to whom he was able to teach the way of shape-shifting. It often seems as if Tolkien felt that when mortals and immortals had offspring, they would, unless other grace was granted, be mortal rather than immortal. Elwing was not considered an immortal Elf, nor was Earendil until they were granted the grace to choose. I don't know that there's any specific statement as to whether or not Dior and his other children would have been counted as mortal or immortal. In any case, if the son of Aiwendil and Unnamed Mortal Woman had children with anorther mortal woman, and his son or daughter did, etc. the line would eventually become rather like the Dunedain in the Third Age, longer lived than other men, with certain unusual gifts (like Aragorn's healing), but mortal Men nonetheless. A scenario like this could also explain why Radagast fell away from his mission, became enamored of Middle-earth, and apparently dwindled to the point that his heart was there, and he lost the yearning to return to Valinor. By having a child, he tied himself to that physical, limited, mortal world, and there he would stay.

It's another thought, anyway.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Might

Wait... what?
No, I thought with some woman.
Maia + Bear = Magician ?!

Maia+bear=werebear.
Maia+wolf=werewolf
Maia+worm=wereworm


Ibrin - great post - and quite sound reasoning.

[Pitchwife]

Ibrin, I'm really flattered (and impressed, too, as you were still 'flu-muddled'!) to see how much thought and erudition you spent trying to make sense of an idea that occurred to me in the mental haze of an extended New Year's hangover!

Actually, I hadn't quite decided myself whether I was thinking of Radagast + mortal human woman or Radagast-bear + mortal she-bear. Reconsidering, I tend to thinking that the Istari being permanently incarnate (as opposed to 'clad') in human shape would probably preclude any genuine (as opposed to illusionary) shape-shifting, but if my theory is supposed to make any sense at all, it must have been the way you explained. Respect!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Thank you. It would seem to me that Radagast+normal female bear would not be an impossibility, but I rather think Tolkien would have balked at it. It feels to me more "mythological" for the mother to have been a human woman, as I can recall at least one Greek myth in which Zeus went to a mortal woman (Europa, I believe) in the form of a bull (though I don't believe they had relations while he was still in that form. Maybe they did. Will have to look it up). I believe there are other myths about various gods coming to women as one creature or another, with resulting unusual children. It just felt like a more logical connection (though how much logic can be applied to myth is certainly subject to debate ).

[Pitchwife]

Well, if you go for the mythological feeling, that would mean Radagast-bear + mortal woman. The poor girl!

[The Might]

This discussion is taking a turn for the funny!

Indeed, in mythology it often happens that men charm the ladies as a beautiful -insert animal here- and then procreate.
In one really extreme myth this happened:

After he ascended the throne of Crete, Minos struggled with his brothers for the right to rule. Minos prayed to Poseidon to send him a snow-white bull, as a sign of approval. He was to sacrifice the bull in honor of Poseidon but decided to keep it instead because of its beauty. To punish Minos, Poseidon caused Pasiphaë, Minos' wife, to fall madly in love with the bull from the sea, the Cretan Bull. She had Daedalus, the famous architect, make a wooden cow for her. Pasiphaë climbed into the decoy in order to copulate with the white bull. The offspring of their coupling was a monster called the Minotaur. ~ From Wikipedia

Ok, so this is really extreme. I don't think Tolkien ever picture some woman building herself a wooden bear for any recreational purposes, and I doubt that any bestiality was involoved in his thoughts.

And I still doubt that Radagast was the type to fall in love with women... he was after all so in love with beasts, remember?!