Gandalf, blood of hobbits on his hands?

[The Might]

Firstly, about the historical references, you will see above that I was not the one who started them, I merely pointed out several historical mistakes or false interpretations in my opinion. It thus came about in the discussion that historical references were used as comparisons for events in Arda.

Secondly, refering to the "@" symbol, I was under no circumstances aware of its aggressive connotation. I have seen it used and used it myself on another forum and none of use ever did it in an aggressive context, but only to save some time for typing so to speak. I usually avoid that here on the Downs, since we don't use short forms of words, etc., but it seems to have stuck.

Now that I know that some may feel offended by its use I will refrain from using it here any longer. Thank you for your information in that respect, Bêthberry! I will edit my post above and remove the @s.

That is an interesting take on the question of guilt, and seeing it that way the question does lose its importance. Then again, seen that way many of the questions raised by his work make little sense, since it would be necessary for the author to depict things in a certain way.


And Andsigil, I will repeat that said above. I never said he would be "kept at bay for ever", I merely said that an alliance with the Easterlings and Southrons would have very much weakened Sauron and would have brought the free people of M-e in a much stronger position.

And yes, culture was a barrier, indeed. There were many differences between them, but simply looking back at Elves and Men of the First Age there were a lot more differences, even different races. And that worked out... so why wouldn't this work out?

And yes, you are correct about the debate part. Here in Germany most people do go for the accusation of being a Nazi when trying to end any debate, but that was not my intention.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

And Andsigil, I will repeat that said above. I never said he would be "kept at bay for ever", I merely said that an alliance with the Easterlings and Southrons would have very much weakened Sauron and would have brought the free people of M-e in a much stronger position.

But conflict was still inevitable. So, accusing Tolkien of jingoism doesn't make sense.

And yes, culture was a barrier, indeed. There were many differences between them, but simply looking back at Elves and Men of the First Age there were a lot more differences, even different races. And that worked out... so why wouldn't this work out?

It worked out with some of the men. It certainly didn't work out with the Easterlings led by Uldor and Ulfang in the Nírnaeth Arnoediad, did it? And by no means are the Edain depicted as any majority among humankind. Tolkien took great care to depict the Edain as an exception.

And yes, you are correct about the debate part. Here in Germany most people do go for the accusation of being a Nazi when trying to end any debate, but that was not my intention.

So, what was your intention in this absurd implication of racism, then?

[The Might]

Merely to find out what was so different about the Easterlings and the Southrons in your opinion so as to prevent them from becoming virtually viable alliance partners for Gondor and Rohan.

As an example again to the question of culture, what about the Druedain?

A totally different culture, different to all other groups of men, with probably bigger differences between themselves and the Gondorians then Gondorians and the others mentioned above. Still, they coexisted peacefully with the Men of Brethil, then in Númenor and finally helped out the Rohirrim and the Gondorians.

And yes, conflict was inevitable, so I was not accusing Tolkien of violence in general, at least not in the latter posts, but merely excessive use of violence at times, in situations where I rather see discussion as possibility.

Again, from your idea with the Edain I am getting the idea your are clearly drawing a line between some men and other men. Hence my blunt and offensive question above for which I again apologize.

You say it is Tolkien depicting them like that, as better than the rest of mankind. They are indeed special in his writings, but I do not believe the Professor ever intended to draw such a line of separation, I doubt it would be his style or his intention.

Tolkien wrote:

in a draft of a letter (#30) to a publisher in Nazi Germany who asked about his race, and in Letter #29 he introduced that draft and told his publisher, "I should regret giving any colour to the notion that I
subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine." ~ quote taken from an essay against the idea that Tolkien's writings are intolerant and racist

The whole idea is Tolkien himself did not see the Southrons and Easterlings as bad, evil, or really that different than the Edain, and I doubt that he wanted his readers to perceive them that way.

So why would an alliance be so unlikely?


Ok, really off-topic by now, so trying to come back to the question of Gandalf and the hobbits... could they indeed be changed?
Groin said it was a type of reactivation of already present knowledge and capability. I agree, that makes sense. But what if they would so to speak deactivate themselves again under a peaceful rule of the house of Telcontar? Did the Scouring then make sense?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

Merely to find out what was so different about the Easterlings and the Southrons in your opinion so as to prevent them from becoming virtually viable alliance partners for Gondor and Rohan.

As an example again to the question of culture, what about the Druedain?

A totally different culture, different to all other groups of men, with probably bigger differences between themselves and the Gondorians then Gondorians and the others mentioned above. Still, they coexisted peacefully with the Men of Brethil, then in Númenor and finally helped out the Rohirrim and the Gondorians.

So did the Ents. And even the Dunlendings repented, and they were of the same race of men as the Rohirrim and the everyday Gondorians. But all of this was at the Nth hour, when Sauron was marching his armies out of Mordor.

Suffice it to say that Tolkien wasn't interested in race in the Rings War. He was more interested in culture, I think, and depicted the Haradrim (who were in close proximity to both the Black Numernoreans and Mordor) and the men of Khand (east of Mordor and difficult for the weakened Gondor to treat with) as men of a more primitive culture and susceptible to the divine influence of Sauron.

The Haradrim and Khandites (sp?) had, as far as we know, no previous experience with getting burned by Sauron like the men of Numenor did.

And yes, conflict was inevitable, so I was not accusing Tolkien of violence in general, at least not in the latter posts, but merely excessive use of violence at times, in situations where I rather see discussion as possibility.

Again, I point out that it's fair to assume, because of his background, that Tolkien had a blueprint of ME and humanity which borrowed heavily from this one. Diplomacy, as you see it, is a new invention. The actions of the men of Gondor were in keeping with men of "similar" times, culture, and governance.

Again, from your idea with the Edain I am getting the idea your are clearly drawing a line between some men and other men. Hence my blunt and offensive question above for which I again apologize.

Apology accepted.

You say it is Tolkien depicting them like that, as better than the rest of mankind. They are indeed special in his writings, but I do not believe the Professor ever intended to draw such a line of separation, I doubt it would be his style or his intention.

Tolkien wrote:

The whole idea is Tolkien himself did not see the Southrons and Easterlings as bad, evil, or really that different than the Edain, and I doubt that he wanted his readers to perceive them that way.

I didn't say "better", you did. However, their friendship with the Eldar did result in long life and an island empire (which they threw away after letting themselves be seduced by Sauron, themselves. Not so dissimilar from the men of Khand and Harad were).