Winged Beasts, a squandered resource?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmmm....

Going out on a limb here (while waiting for the Christmas fudge to cool): The thought comes to mind that whatever the creature's real name might be, the original critter that eventually became the Winged Nazgul Mount™ could have been Melkor's attempt to parody his brother Manwe's Eagles. I don't recall ever reading that in any of Tolkien's various writings and drafts, but it would go along with him making parodies of Elves and Ents (it also keeps with the nice alliterative pattern). That it looks nothing at all like an eagle, save for having wings and claws, would not be amiss, since orcs and trolls about as similar to Elves and Ents.

And I still tend to think that we didn't see them used sooner because either the few that were around weren't yet capable of being effective mounts, or because Sauron was holding them back to increase the fear factor when he needed it.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

Good points!

Alfirin, I'm sure they could have used the Fell Beasts for aerial bombardment to some extent, remember the attacks on Faramir and his men? FB armour might be tricky due to weight constraints perhaps. btw thanks for the paragraphs!

Gordis, like the GH scenario! The quote regarding 1418 says to me that this was the first time they were released on the unsuspecting world, probably the Nazgul had trained them in secret for a long while previously.

Morth, I'm liking Quetzalcoatlus northropi a lot, and Ibril's 'mockery' idea!

Meanwhile,

whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon

has me tantalised, which mountains? Cold implies North, or very high, Ered Mithrin, the Grey Mountains, work on both counts, and also are close to the Withered Heath, the last-known dragon-hangout, possibly relations of the Fell Beasts? Alternatively some Eastern range, the Northern Yellow Mts perhaps? Why 'beneath the moon'? This makes no sense unless to emphasise that they are nocturnal.

Morth- Nazgul no. 2 :, Lal - Hillary Briss , Gordis- Fluffy 1&2 :... LOLs

Henceforth I shall know the FBs as 'Fluffy' just as the littlest-Nazgul is forever Skippy ;-)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

... I don't recall ever reading that in any of Tolkien's various writings and drafts, but it would go along with him making parodies of Elves and Ents (it also keeps with the nice alliterative pattern). That it looks nothing at all like an eagle, save for having wings and claws, would not be amiss, since orcs and trolls about as similar to Elves and Ents..

Yes, nice alliterative analogy...elves and eagles and ents...oh my! It is very plausible, considering the eagles and fell beasts ended up battling above the Morannon, just as the eagles and dragons battled in the 1st Age.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And I still tend to think that we didn't see them used sooner because either the few that were around weren't yet capable of being effective mounts, or because Sauron was holding them back to increase the fear factor when he needed it.

Well, the Olog-hai arrived late on the scene, as did the Uruk-hai, both creative output from Lithui Labs Ltd., Mr. Sauron Gorthaur, CEO (Chief Evil Omnipotentate).

[The Might]

When Merry and Pippin were captured by Uruk-hai at Amon Hen on February 27, Grishnakh said the prisoners should be taken across the Anduin where a winged Nazgul waited. Ugluk taunted Grishnakh about the mount that had been shot out from under the Nazgul, and Grishnakh said that the winged Nazgul were not yet ready to show themselves on the west side of the Anduin. They were to be used for the War and other purposes.

I'll edit in the quote when I get home and have the books available for that purpose.

Idea is however, that Sauron somehow found these creatures somewhere, maybe the remains of some experiments made by Morgoth in the First Age, maybe found during his exile in the far east. He then proceededto feed them and to corrupt the race further in order to create the steeds. Finally, the Nazgul received them as steeds, but only once Sauron no longer saw reason for any secrecy. Horses were at first better because, as pointed above, they inspired less fear. But still, we know what by February 27 they still were not allowed to openly show themselves to the enemy.

[Gordis]

Going out on a limb here (while waiting for the Christmas fudge to cool): The thought comes to mind that whatever the creature's real name might be, the original critter that eventually became the Winged Nazgul Mount™ could have been Melkor's attempt to parody his brother Manwe's Eagles

I don't think so. I believe Morgoth's response to Manwe's Eagles were definitely the Dragons: Morgoth had indeed put a lot of work in Glaurung, Ancalagon and the rest of them and got impressive results.

Undoubtedly originally (before Sauron's intervention) the FB were much smaller than the Nazgul Mounts™: although maybe related to cold Drakes, they were some small flying carnivorous critters living under the Shadow of Morgoth.

When somwhere a shadow lies, the local fauna tends to become creepy (i.e. Mirkwood). I don't think Morgoth paid the FellBeasties any special attention, like Sauron hardly specifically bred black squirrels of Mirkwood: they were too insignificant.

As for how the original FellBeasties looked like, I am tempted to post a small excerpt of a fanfic Mountain guardswhere a nest of wild FellBeasties is described. I think the author was very close to the target in this description:

From a fanfic by Malicean: A hiss like a live coal hitting water. A very angry coal – and it brought friends. The Uruk is lucky to loose merely the tip of an ear and a handful of stringy hairs when a score of greedy jaws shoot from the rock face on skinny necks. Pu-sha-skoirs. Winged-Maws. Fellbeasties. Perfect stock for breeding a grisly airborne steed – if you’re a Ringwraith with a couple of millennia on your hands and nothing better to do.
If you know where the colony is, you simply stay out of reach, and they’ll do nothing but hiss and spit. They prefer dead meat to those who might fight back – but if opportunity marches straight into their jaws… Unlike their giant cousins, fellbeasties can’t bite you in halves, but they can take off a hand, a foot or half of your face, whatever they get hold of. And perched at the entrances of their rocky nests, necks writhing snakelike and wings spread for full display, they look more than ready to attack.

The original Fellbeasties (little creatures prone to evil) likely lived somewhere near Utumno and Angband. When this region had sunk, they probably didn't fly far, but continued to live in the nearest "forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon"
Now which mountains would that be? - If we believe the maps of the First and the Second Age by K.W. Fonstad, Utumno must have sunk in the place where later there was the Ice-bay of Forochel. Just have a look at the site of Utumno on these two maps:First Age Second Age
In the Third Age the nearby cold mountains were known as the Mountains of Angmar, where the Witch-King's fortress of Carn-Dum once stood. Very likely the small fellbeasties felt quite comfortable under the Shadow of Angmar and maybe they were indirectly referred to in the description of Angmar in App. A:

the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures.

Anyway, it is quite probable, that although this component of Angmarian fauna originally had been of little use to the Witch-King, later he told Sauron about the critters and advised to bring a few of them to Mordor for experiments. (The Witch-King's involvement in the FB project is specially noted in "the Hunt for the Ring , RC). Sauron, after his failure to enlist Smaug to his side and the dragon's destruction, likely sought other flying creatures to work with.
I guess it was not easy to find the remaining fellbeasties in the mountains of Angmar, but eventually, the search parties returned and brought to Mordor the last remaining brood, maybe 30-40 years before the War of the Ring.
By 3018, Sauron managed to make them grow "beyond the measure of all other things that fly", but I think the brilliant idea to give them as steeds to the Nazgul came at the last moment, after the Nazgul lost all their horses but one at the Ford of Bruinen.

[Lalwendë]

This:

whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon

means they are probably not reptilian creatures. I can't think of any reptiles which thrive on cold and moonlight. Even British snakes need to bask, and they hibernate in winter, as do Toads and Frogs, so I doubt it's Amphibian either.

If it's a mammal then it's one which doesn't need to be nursed on milk, or else has been weaned early. Being able to fly doesn't rule out it being a mammal of course.

Also, they were "lingering in forgotten mountains". Does that literally mean 'in' the mountain, as in a cave? Or does the use of 'eyrie' exclude that?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This:

means they are probably not reptilian creatures. I can't think of any reptiles which thrive on cold and moonlight. Even British snakes need to bask, and they hibernate in winter, as do Toads and Frogs, so I doubt it's Amphibian either.

If it's a mammal then it's one which doesn't need to be nursed on milk, or else has been weaned early. Being able to fly doesn't rule out it being a mammal of course.

Well, Tolkien was never one for the proper placement of biospheres or ecosystems. If the 'Withered Heath' can best be described as the hatchery or nursery of dragons, then its northern proximity indicates that in Middle-earth reptiles of the draconis order were adaptable to rather frigid climes, or at least wild fluctuations of temperature. With their innate intelligence, they could have been precursors to mammals!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Also, they were "lingering in forgotten mountains". Does that literally mean 'in' the mountain, as in a cave? Or does the use of 'eyrie' exclude that?

I think it's yet another example of archaic Tolkienisms. Tolkien says 'in' when he means 'on' or 'atop', and uses 'under' when he means 'in' or 'below'. So lingering 'in' forgotten mountains means existing 'atop' or 'along' the mountain. Or at least, that's my understanding, without getting in too deep.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think it's yet another example of archaic Tolkienisms. Tolkien says 'in' when he means 'on' or 'atop', and uses 'under' when he means 'in' or 'below'.

I took it be "in" as in "we went hiking in the mountains". In fact it never occurred to me that there was a another way of reading it.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think so. I believe Morgoth's response to Manwe's Eagles were definitely the Dragons: Morgoth had indeed put a lot of work in Glaurung, Ancalagon and the rest of them and got impressive results.

I'm not saying that the beasties were the intended final product of an attempt to parody the Eagles, but rather that they were a step along the way toward that eventual development, set aside if not entirely discarded because they were not sufficiently the result Melkor had in mind. I rather tend to think of Melkor like some mad scientist breeding things in a genetics lab -- a strange sort of Dr. Frankenstein, obsessed with the idea of creating life on his own, but lacking that ability, content to corrupt and twist what life exists into monsters who will wreak havoc on the world he hates. These critters are his "children," and like any bad narcissitic parent, he will keep them all about him, some to be praised, others to be punished, but all to serve. In LotR, they are the evil parallel to the Eagles, since the dragons and other more impressive flying nasties appear to have died out with Smaug.

Well, it's another thought.

[Gordis]

With that I readily agree, Ibrin.