Future nazgûl: good or evil Men?

[Firefoot]

It seems to me that there is an underemphasis in this thread on Sauron's ability to deceive people. The future-Nazgul could very well have been just, decent Men, deceived by Sauron into believing good of the Rings. Sauron at this point emphasized his reputation as a gift giver; the rings could no doubt have been presented as kingly gifts, able to extend the abilities, wisdom, etc. of the bearer. Not unlike the fruit in the garden of Eden, right?

If you accept the premise that no one in Middle-earth was perfect (and I think everyone would), this implies that everyone has some kind of fault that Sauron could have appealed to and that the Rings could have worked on. In fact, the Rings probably could have turned even virtues into faults! Take a king who desired to rule justly and well, who may have had a group of insurgents on his hands... presented in the right way, a ring might seem a desirable tool indeed! It would be taken with a desire to work good, but the man would become trapped and twisted - that desire to rule well might turn into sheer desire for power thus leading to tyranny. (cf. the reasoning of Gandalf and Galadriel in refusing the One Ring from Frodo).

I doubt that there are many Men who, understanding the full powers and implications of the Nine, would have taken a Ring. So Sauron didn't tell them everything. He told them exactly what he thought they wanted or needed to hear... luring, threatening, lying, whatever. Note the word "ensnare" in the original quote. He trapped them, tricked them, though at the time they all perhaps thought themselves fully willing.

I'm not saying that the future-Nazgul were necessarily good men... but they weren't necessarily evil either. They could easily have been either, and probably there was a mix of both. Was Boromir evil? By no means! Yet I could easily see him as the sort of person that Sauron might have sought out with one of the Nine had he lived a couple thousand years earlier.

And for those of you who enjoy the fan fiction-y side of things, I can't resist a plug... this is possibly my favorite RPG of all the ones I've written in, about the fall of Khamul: Shadow of the West.

[Gordis]

Firefoot, I agree wholly with everything you have said.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

And for those of you who enjoy the fan fiction-y side of things, I can't resist a plug... this is possibly my favorite RPG of all the ones I've written in, about the fall of Khamul: Shadow of the West.

I have read all of it. I is a great story, only the end seems a bit rushed and inferior to the beginning of the story. Khamul in particular is quite wonderful and very believable.

Also this interpretation of Khamul seems more in accordance with the portrait of the nazgul in LOTR. Khamul in LOTR seems to be a very patient being: both the Gaffer and Maggot had been quite rude to him, yet he let them live. Had he been a bloodthirsty monster in life, at least Maggot's head could have been chopped off without any repercussions...

[Firefoot]

We ran out of writers at the end...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

It seems to me that there is an underemphasis in this thread on Sauron's ability to deceive people. The future-Nazgul could very well have been just, decent Men, deceived by Sauron into believing good of the Rings. Sauron at this point emphasized his reputation as a gift giver; the rings could no doubt have been presented as kingly gifts, able to extend the abilities, wisdom, etc. of the bearer. Not unlike the fruit in the garden of Eden, right?

It is not an underemphasis of Sauron's ability, it is rather accepting that often a great lie and much effort is totally unnecessary (Ockham's Razor used in a practical sense), particularly in rough, unschooled barbarian warriors and rulers in the Dark Ages (because, for all intents and purposes, that is what we are dealing with). I am merely saying that Sauron most likely didn't have to go too far out of his way to 'ensnare' those he thought worthy of bearing the Rings ('worthy' in a pejorative sense). Tolkien uses the term 'Rings of Power' purposely, and as Tolkien stated, "'power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales". He also uses the term "lust for domination".

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Take a king who desired to rule justly and well, who may have had a group of insurgents on his hands... presented in the right way, a ring might seem a desirable tool indeed! It would be taken with a desire to work good, but the man would become trapped and twisted - that desire to rule well might turn into sheer desire for power thus leading to tyranny.

Yes, in theory you are perhaps correct, but in fact there is no evidence that that was the case (what we have is Gandalf offering conjecture on what might happen or could have happened -- there is nothing concrete). I realize this is an exercise in conjecture, but of those Nazgul who are idenitfied by region (the three Numenoreans and one Easterling), it is evident that, particularly with the Numenoreans, they were already Sauronian before accepting the Rings ('wicked Kings' and 'sorcerors' as Tolkien refers to them). It seems equally certain that the Easterling was not some benevolent king striving to ward off insurgency; rather, as with all Easterlings under Sauron's sway (the Balchoth, Variags and Wainriders, for instance) they are powerful barbarian warriors, and quite successful in their incursions against the West. And given Sauron's rudimentary battle strategems (he was never a good tactician in war), which were to bludgeon, to overwhelm, to slaughter, it would seem his chief lieutenants generaled in the manner of barbarian warlords.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I'm not saying that the future-Nazgul were necessarily good men... but they weren't necessarily evil either. They could easily have been either, and probably there was a mix of both. Was Boromir evil? By no means! Yet I could easily see him as the sort of person that Sauron might have sought out with one of the Nine had he lived a couple thousand years earlier.

Boromir was confronted with the One Ring, and not a lesser Ring. Would he have succumbed to the lure of one of the Nine? I don't know, but then again he was not thirsting for domination or power either. His brother refused the One Ring, and I don't see Faramir accepting one of the Nine either. Give some men credit for having the strength of will to deny the gift (or find it unnecessary), just as you are so certain that none could withstand it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Khamul in LOTR seems to be a very patient being: both the Gaffer and Maggot had been quite rude to him, yet he let them live. Had he been a bloodthirsty monster in life, at least Maggot's head could have been chopped off without any repercussions...

The Nazgul's primary weapon is fear. When confronted by someone who is fearless, like Maggot (and the altercation occurred during the day, when the Nazgul are at their weakest), they don't appear to be much good at fighting. How else would one explain Aragorn driving off several at once on Weathertop when the Ring was in their grasp (and in the dead of night)? There is also the consideration that a murder in the Shire would raise the local folk in anger (there were several Hobbit farmhands in Maggot's household), which would be counterproductive in the Nazgul's search.

And Gordis, the words 'sorceror' and 'sorcery' are always used by Tolkien in a negative sense, meaning 'black arts' and most often 'necromancy'. I have not seen one instance in Tolkien's writing where 'sorceror' has a positive meaning.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It is not an underemphasis of Sauron's ability, it is rather accepting that often a great lie and much effort is totally unnecessary (Ockham's Razor used in a practical sense), particularly in rough, unschooled barbarian warriors and rulers in the Dark Ages (because, for all intents and purposes, that is what we are dealing with).

But "three were great lords of Númenórean race"- Akallabeth, not some barbarians. In the same text the Numenoreans are described:

They grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.

Sauron had to use some vile tricks to ensnare such Men.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, in theory you are perhaps correct, but in fact there is no evidence that that was the case (what we have is Gandalf offering conjecture on what might happen or could have happened -- there is nothing concrete). I realize this is an exercise in conjecture, but of those Nazgul who are idenitfied by region (the three Numenoreans and one Easterling), it is evident that, particularly with the Numenoreans, they were already Sauronian before accepting the Rings ('wicked Kings' and 'sorcerors' as Tolkien refers to them).

I have already addressed it in my previous post and found another quote supporting Gandalf's words:

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring- Of the Rings of Power

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Nazgul's primary weapon is fear. When confronted by someone who is fearless, like Maggot (and the altercation occurred during the day, when the Nazgul are at their weakest), they don't appear to be much good at fighting. How else would one explain Aragorn driving off several at once on Weathertop when the Ring was in their grasp (and in the dead of night)? There is also the consideration that a murder in the Shire would raise the local folk in anger (there were several Hobbit farmhands in Maggot's household), which would be counterproductive in the Nazgul's search.

It is not that Maggot was particularly fearless. Obviously the nazgul could tone down their fear to some extent, when dealing with the living: seeking for information, delivering messages, giving orders. It won't do it a Southron general receiving orders from the Morgul Lord on a battlefield would faint from fright or run away headlong, would it? The messenger to Erebor didn't send the Dwarves flying, the Gaffer spoke with the nazgul feeling no worse than nervous, as did Butterbeer, as did Maggot.
When he wished so, the Morgul Lord could send a whole army flying in terror, and the other nazgul could unman Gondorians just by shrieking overhead.

And don't try to persuade me that Khamul didn't have enough fighting skills to kill an anarmed hobbit farmer. He simply chose not to (for the reasons you stated), which proves he could control his temper.

The guard of Rangers at the Sarn Ford had been exterminated by the nazgul.
As for Aragorn at Weathertop, he was most surprised himself when the nazgul withdrew: " I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again," he said. He didn't know that Frodo happened to have the only type of blade perilous for the Witch-King and nearly killed him. (RC, the Hunt for the Ring).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

And Gordis, the words 'sorceror' and 'sorcery' are always used by Tolkien in a negative sense, meaning 'black arts' and most often 'necromancy'. I have not seen one instance in Tolkien's writing where 'sorceror' has a positive meaning.

Right. It is like THE ENEMY always has "spies" while OUR country has "intelligence officers"

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But "three were great lords of Númenórean race"- Akallabeth, not some barbarians. In the same text the Numenoreans are described

Sorry I was not clear. I was referring to the 'warriors' of the Nazgul that Tolkien referred to (along with kings and sorcerors). In any case, the three Numenorean Nazgul were undoubtedly kings of barbarian races, such as the Haradrim or Umbarians.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And don't try to persuade me that Khamul didn't have enough fighting skills to kill an anarmed hobbit farmer. He simply chose not to (for the reasons you stated), which proves he could control his temper.

As I said, Maggot was not alone. There were many farmhands about (check out the kitchen table scene a page or so later). Raising the alarm (as Fredegar did in Crickhollow) would prove counterproductive in their search.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The guard of Rangers at the Sarn Ford had been exterminated by the nazgul.
As for Aragorn at Weathertop, he was most surprised himself when the nazgul withdrew: " I cannot think why they have gone and do not attack again," he said. He didn't know that Frodo happened to have the only type of blade perilous for the Witch-King and nearly killed him. (RC, the Hunt for the Ring).

The rangers at Sarn Ford were 'dispersed', weren't they (I am not near a book)? In any case, dead rangers, 'outsiders', would not raise alarm among Hobbits. It would seem the Nazgul were cowardly, whatever the excuse. On Weathertop it was dark, it was a lonely place, their primary prey was wounded -- all the elements where nazgul were supposedly at their best. A major blunder on the part of the Nazgul that can be only equated to cowardice.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Right. It is like THE ENEMY always has "spies" while OUR country has "intelligence officers"

*Shrugs* Tolkien was certainly a 'homer' rooting for one side (the poor orcs never get a eucatastrophe!); nevertheless, the word 'sorceror' remains a pejorative.

And with that, I think I'll bow out of this conversation, having reached the point where the phrase 'agree to disagree' becomes apparent.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The rangers at Sarn Ford were 'dispersed', weren't they (I am not near a book)?

Many rangers were slain. Here are the quotes:

Drawing together again [the nazgul] came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dúnedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire - UT "Hunt for the Ring."

after the Black Riders had overcome the Rangers guarding Sarn Ford, four of the Riders pursue Rangers along Greenway, and having slain them or driven them off Eastwards, make a camp at Andrath. -RC p.145

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It would seem the Nazgul were cowardly, whatever the excuse. On Weathertop it was dark, it was a lonely place, their primary prey was wounded -- all the elements where nazgul were supposedly at their best. A major blunder on the part of the Nazgul that can be only equated to cowardice.

The nazgul certainly valued their lives more than the One Ring, it is clear from RC. Only fear of Sauron's wrath drove them on to some bold action, and that only when they became desperate. I guess they had good reasons, though: it is much more unpleasant to become a powerless ghost subject to Sauron for all eternity than to go to Mandos as normal Men or Elves do.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

And with that, I think I'll bow out of this conversation, having reached the point where the phrase 'agree to disagree' becomes apparent.

*Bows back*. Thank you, we have had a fine discussion.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gordis

*Bows back*. Thank you, we have had a fine discussion.

*The Dark Elf bows in return*

Oh, the pleasure was all mine. Definitely a worthwhile and informative dialogue.