LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 07 - The Pyre of Denethor

[Bêthberry]

Some people are picking up very old threads. Does that necessitate reading them over again to see what's what?

Guinevere's quote is excellent for pointing out the significant effect of Gandalf's presence, the inspiring sense of hope. It is a very Obama-like situation. And Strongbow--welcome to the Downs--will your posts be as a good libation?--is spot on that Gandalf does not operate to gain power for himself.

Yet in so many other situations Gandalf did not inspire hope, but suspicion. What changed to bring hope into Gandy's presence here and now at the Seige?

by the by, it is interesting to note that Denethor does not seem to acknowledge the White in Gandalf, as Denethor calls him the Grey Fool.

[Galadriel55]

Does it not bother anyone else that every time there is some surprise revelation Gandalf goes "Oh yeah, I knew that for a long time!". I think the only one he admitted to not knowing or suspecting was the Balrog. It bothers me, like he has to show that he knows best even though he didn't do anything about it when there was still a chance to prevent something. Denethor's palantir gazing was a topic of rumour as far as Rohan, though no one actually suspected a palantir (except know-it-all Gandalf of course). So if Gandalf thought this was the source of Denethor's knowledge and also his madness, could he have not used his suspicion to convince Denethor he is not all-knowing and all-powerful? Convince him that Gandalf can know something too, and through his own cleverness rather than a magic item? It's debatable if Denethor could have been scared or humbled into sanity or at least submission, but could Gandalf have at least tried? I'm not making a case against Gandalf here, but it just bugs me that - once again - he claims he suspected the thing after it happens.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Does it not bother anyone else that every time there is some surprise revelation Gandalf goes "Oh yeah, I knew that for a long time!". I think the only one he admitted to not knowing or suspecting was the Balrog. It bothers me, like he has to show that he knows best even though he didn't do anything about it when there was still a chance to prevent something. Denethor's palantir gazing was a topic of rumour as far as Rohan, though no one actually suspected a palantir (except know-it-all Gandalf of course).

Heh, that's actually something I like about Gandalf's personality (maybe because in my younger days I affected the same trait on occasion ).

In The Hobbit there's that line about Gandalf not minding explaining his cleverness more than once, and that's just the way he rolls, so to speak. I cut him some slack: he's an immortal being wearing a mortal form and subject to bodily constraints; he has to use guile and persuasion (with the very limited expression of raw power) to induce lesser beings more concerned with their own problems to pay attention to Sauron; and he also must deal tactfully with the big egos who think they should be the leaders against Sauron's menace. Maybe pointing out when he's right is an effort to put across the idea of "See? I was right again. When will you bloody listen to me?"

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So if Gandalf thought this was the source of Denethor's knowledge and also his madness, could he have not used his suspicion to convince Denethor he is not all-knowing and all-powerful? Convince him that Gandalf can know something too, and through his own cleverness rather than a magic item? It's debatable if Denethor could have been scared or humbled into sanity or at least submission, but could Gandalf have at least tried? I'm not making a case against Gandalf here, but it just bugs me that - once again - he claims he suspected the thing after it happens.

Gandalf seems particularly rankled by Denethor's arrogant assumption that he's pulling a fast one on everyone, friends and enemies alike, with too much trust in his own abilities and authority. I'm pretty sure Gandalf overtly telling Denethor he knew about the Stone would have been counterproductive, since D was already suspicious of Gandalf and his motives, and the death of Boromir didn't exactly raise Gandalf's status with him either.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Heh, that's actually something I like about Gandalf's personality (maybe because in my younger days I affected the same trait on occasion ).

I'm the opposite, I guess. Knowing something bad that you can prevent and not speaking up or doing anything about it just frustrates me so much. "Sorry your pie burned. I could tell it was burning in the oven for an hour now because of the smell and smoke and fire alarms, but I was not 100% sure and I preferred you to discover it for yourself." Gee thanks.

I do agree that there probably wasn't much Gandalf could reasonably have achieved with Denethor even if he tried. It's more the know-it-all attitude after the thing happened that annoys me.

[Formendacil]

Before thinking about my reread, in response to the ancient questions above about Gandalf's authority to put Imrahil in command, it seems to me that the context of their conversation is missing: Gandalf doesn't have to convince Gondor that Imrahil is in command, just Imrahil. As noted above, Imrahil is disposed as "a good person" to trust Gandalf--and in case we have any doubt that this new, minor character is a good person, we just saw him (albeit in what will be his future) effectively saving Eowyn and being leagued with Aragorn and Imrahil.

So if Gandalf convinces Imrahil to take command, I think he's all set. Argue, if you will, whether it would be within the scope of the prince's authority to take charge of Gondor's military, but I don't think there's any doubt that he would be obeyed if he gave orders--unless someone arrived with the Steward's authority to gainsay him, and the Steward has been AWOL for days. "The Siege of Gondor" shows that when Denethor abandons care for the defences that it's Gandalf and Imrahil going about motivating the troops. Quite apart from that, however, he's the highest ranked noble in the city and brother-in-law to the Steward (and I think we can say that his presence in the city's hour of need--as the Lord of Belfalas--is telling when Gondor's south is so threatened, and thus so unable to send significant numbers--is telling of his close loyalty to the Steward).

As for the reread... "The Pyre of Denethor" is a favourite chapter of mine. The tragedy of the House of Denethor is one of my favourite bits, engaging in its own right and a perfect answer to anyone who says Tolkien wrote only in black and white.

Beregond's dilemma and choices are equally grey, even if his own character is far more clear-cut. Following orders is not a minor matter for a soldier in war and slaying the doorwarden is as murky a moral.choice as anything Gollum does.

[Zigûr]

I always assumed Gandalf "gave" Imrahil command fairly informally; Imrahil seems to have been wise enough to have recognised Gandalf's good sense, and as Formendacil has said, he alone needed to be convinced, perhaps even just informed; Imrahil was (by position at least) possibly the second most important man in Gondor after Denethor himself.

(Prince of Dol Amroth seems to have been one of the highest positions in the realm; his ancestor had been "chief" of Cirion's companions at the swearing of the Oath of Eorl, and one of only four men (along with Cirion and Eorl themselves, and Eorl's own Chief Captain Éomund) who decided on the boundaries of Rohan.)

It was probably Imrahil's responsibility in the chain of command to take charge at that point, and simply needed someone better-informed than himself at that time, who he respected, to tell him that he needed to take on that role.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I agree; Imrahil was the Senior Surviving Officer, both given the elevated status of the Principality of Dol Amroth as the premier peerage of the realm, as well as his being Denethor's and Faramir's nearest living kinsman

Gandalf just had to elbow him in the ribs to remember his cue (in part because Imrahil was expecting Aragorn to step up on the spot).