The Middle Earth Popularity Cup - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morthoron · 11-20-2008, 01:38 PM

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

Thinlómien · 11-20-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

Ah, I guess that's why I like him so much. Because he "failed", in the end. So no perfect heroism there...

mormegil · 11-20-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words).

Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos).

And yet you vote Sauron???

the phantom · 11-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Maedhros was a good chap ensnared by a terrible doom.

He showed his character when he did not want to burn the ships, and again when he attempted to make peace with various other Lords. In addition, after King Fingolfin kicked the bucket, though the "High Kingship" passed to Fingon, Maedhros was the true top dog after that.

It was he that organized the resistance to Morgoth, and it was the Union of Maedhros, not Fingon, who forced Morgoth to empty Angband.

In the end he was a victim of a rash decision he had made as a youth- making his oath, and naming Eru in it.

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.

So, can we truly wipe out all of his good deeds because of one youthful mistake? Especially since it was the Valar who had bungled the whole Melkor-running-free situation which led to everything else?

++Maedhros

Nogrod · 11-20-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the phantom

In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened.

Which just brings a nice added piece of this Tolkienish fatalistic universe and its romantic heroes...

I should be the literal guy and thence vote for Bilbo but even if I really like him as a character - and my personal liking for how a life should be lead and what is important are much closer to Bilbo than Maedhros - I must confess there is certain romantic grandeur (with the bravery, shortcomings, anguish and all that) in Maedhros that just catch the imagination. And the hopeless and terrible quest for the Silmarils in the end just rise him above many. (only the end-solution I found a bit dull; burning jewel and oath undone & suicide... blah how typical...

)

But sure for me it will be...

++ Maedhros

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-21-2008, 05:27 AM

My personal choice would be

++Bilbo

Say what, isn't it enough for you that I vote for a Hobbit rather than for an Elf... but really, well, for me, Maedhros, of all Fëanor's sons, was one of the least interesting. I have nothing against his character, quite the contrary, but from the point of being literally interesting for me, he loses to Mr. B. a long way. Bilbo Baggins - as long as he is on the scene, in particular during the whole Hobbit and later at the beginning of LotR, still (when he's becoming a bit old and sleepy it isn't as interesting anymore

), is just a great character. In general, I tend to dislike main heroes just because they are main heroes (which is usually connected with being either perfect or in a way silly, like Harry Potter), but Bilbo (and Frodo, although he is closer to the edge with this) is something different. And the main thing is the "atmosphere" around him, although it may be the atmosphere of whole The Hobbit, but it is this sort-of-fairy-tale, but different, not THAT fairy-tale, it is more mundane more down-to-earth, but also Dragons and Dwarves and autumn sun and Men and Goblins rather than the High Power Of Noldor Long Sword Of Heavenly Flame +15 Hail Ye To The Legendary Legends Of Legendariest Legendary Kings Of Old. You can say it also this way: I would have liked far more (and btw also find it far likely) to meet Bilbo Baggins in a field outside the city near my house than to meet Maedhros there.
Maedhros makes me think of the music of Blind Guardian, which, despite it being a good music, is something that lacks... depth (?) for me (in that case, Bilbo Baggins is Pink Floyd

). It is the strong words of Sorrow, Pride, Loss and Bravery, which are strong when being shouted, but if you go away from the shouting, they are pronounced with no substance. Maedhros has, unfortunately for him, a big chance to become a character in an animated TV series, colorful, in the "modern" way portrayed also as a hero with his own flaws, but even these flaws will be overaccented and he will be nothing more than these four or five character traits which make everything that he is. Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.

Nerwen · 11-21-2008, 05:52 AM

It's interesting to see different people's takes on the characters... I abstained from voting this round because I like both contestants equally– in completely different ways.

Now, looking at the previous round, I see that four out of the five who voted for Sauron are Tol-in-Gaurhoth-ites.

skip, this is a clear conflict of interest!

Lalwendë · 11-21-2008, 08:13 AM

++ Bilbo.

Duh.

Of course I'm going to vote Bilbo, being his Number One Fan. What's not to like? He's a Hobbit and therefore cooler than any Elf; he's almost the embodiment of Tolkien himself; he's witty; he's so English it hurts; and he's the one who found that ring.

Thinlómien · 11-21-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him.

Your sight is just limited...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morth

Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).

Oh but you must understand that's not an argument that will convince everybody - for example I think that Judas is very fascinating as a character...

Legate of Amon Lanc · 11-21-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Your sight is just limited...

Gah. I could say the same about your view of Tuor

Morthoron · 11-20-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

And yet you vote Sauron???

Yes. Your point is what? We are talking popularity, and why you like or dislike the characters. Sauron is a better villain than Maedhros is a hero. *shrugs*

To me, Maedhros maintaining his cursed vow through several separate slaughters of his kindred is not excusable, even if he supposedly was unable to break his vow and blindly went on killing, unable to stop himself (if he indeed could not stop because of the vow, then he was a mere puppet and therefore worthless). He did not ever say enough is enough, never prevented forcibly the acts of his brothers, and killed himself rather than surrender the Silmaril. Like Judas, his committing suicide rather than repenting is a mortal sin (even though I gave up being Catholic decades ago).

Several great and heroic characters were able to refuse the One Ring (particularly Galadriel to whom it was offered freely, or Faramir), or give it up on their own accord (Bilbo and Sam), and the One Ring had a far more evilly coercive and 'addictive' effect than the Silmarils (which are. of course, supposedly 'holy gems').

mormegil · 11-20-2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes. Your point is what?

I didn't know I had one

11-20-2008, 01:38 PM	#1
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	++Bilbo by default. I'm not a big fan of the Hobbitish race, but Bilbo is, after all, Bilbo (and confusticate, flummoxed and bebother are three of my favorite words). Sorry Lommie, but the sons of Feanor are all gutless cowards in my book. And I'm particularly disappointed in Maedhros and Maglor, who at least showed common sense and tact at times (unlike their more haughty and contemptible brothers, like Celegorm and Caranthir). Unless one is making the claim that one is utterly unable to overcome fate, and incapable of breaking a vow, then Maedhros could have denied his father and the vow at the very end, not committed blatant murder, and in a small way atoned for the sins of his family (which would have stood him in better stead when being judged by Mandos). __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

11-20-2008, 01:54 PM	#4
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Maedhros was a good chap ensnared by a terrible doom. He showed his character when he did not want to burn the ships, and again when he attempted to make peace with various other Lords. In addition, after King Fingolfin kicked the bucket, though the "High Kingship" passed to Fingon, Maedhros was the true top dog after that. It was he that organized the resistance to Morgoth, and it was the Union of Maedhros, not Fingon, who forced Morgoth to empty Angband. In the end he was a victim of a rash decision he had made as a youth- making his oath, and naming Eru in it. In his mind, he simply had to attempt to gain the Silmarils if they were not yielded to him, for he had sworn upon God that he would do so. Without that one mistake, the oath, the other bad things would not have happened. So, can we truly wipe out all of his good deeds because of one youthful mistake? Especially since it was the Valar who had bungled the whole Melkor-running-free situation which led to everything else? ++Maedhros __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

11-21-2008, 05:27 AM	#6
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	My personal choice would be ++Bilbo Say what, isn't it enough for you that I vote for a Hobbit rather than for an Elf... but really, well, for me, Maedhros, of all Fëanor's sons, was one of the least interesting. I have nothing against his character, quite the contrary, but from the point of being literally interesting for me, he loses to Mr. B. a long way. Bilbo Baggins - as long as he is on the scene, in particular during the whole Hobbit and later at the beginning of LotR, still (when he's becoming a bit old and sleepy it isn't as interesting anymore ), is just a great character. In general, I tend to dislike main heroes just because they are main heroes (which is usually connected with being either perfect or in a way silly, like Harry Potter), but Bilbo (and Frodo, although he is closer to the edge with this) is something different. And the main thing is the "atmosphere" around him, although it may be the atmosphere of whole The Hobbit, but it is this sort-of-fairy-tale, but different, not THAT fairy-tale, it is more mundane more down-to-earth, but also Dragons and Dwarves and autumn sun and Men and Goblins rather than the High Power Of Noldor Long Sword Of Heavenly Flame +15 Hail Ye To The Legendary Legends Of Legendariest Legendary Kings Of Old. You can say it also this way: I would have liked far more (and btw also find it far likely) to meet Bilbo Baggins in a field outside the city near my house than to meet Maedhros there. Maedhros makes me think of the music of Blind Guardian, which, despite it being a good music, is something that lacks... depth (?) for me (in that case, Bilbo Baggins is Pink Floyd ). It is the strong words of Sorrow, Pride, Loss and Bravery, which are strong when being shouted, but if you go away from the shouting, they are pronounced with no substance. Maedhros has, unfortunately for him, a big chance to become a character in an animated TV series, colorful, in the "modern" way portrayed also as a hero with his own flaws, but even these flaws will be overaccented and he will be nothing more than these four or five character traits which make everything that he is. Now I am exaggerating it, of course, but intentionally: he can be summed into a few words for me, and I have to work hard to see a real character behind him. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

11-21-2008, 05:52 AM	#7
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	It's interesting to see different people's takes on the characters... I abstained from voting this round because I like both contestants equally– in completely different ways. Now, looking at the previous round, I see that four out of the five who voted for Sauron are Tol-in-Gaurhoth-ites. skip, this is a clear conflict of interest! __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

11-21-2008, 08:13 AM	#8
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	++ Bilbo. Duh. Of course I'm going to vote Bilbo, being his Number One Fan. What's not to like? He's a Hobbit and therefore cooler than any Elf; he's almost the embodiment of Tolkien himself; he's witty; he's so English it hurts; and he's the one who found that ring. __________________ Gordon's alive!

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