Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I am quite insulted that you think I'd try an idiotic wolf-cub ploy like pretending not to know the rules.

I agree with you on this. It is possible of course that you are a WW and were merely not terribly active in the Night discussions and left the kill selection to the other three. So your Ranger mistake does not rule you out from being a WW.

But I agree that you would not purposefully use ignorance as a shield.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Thus, it makes me wonder that you're so eager to say that you can hardly defend yourself against such suspicions. I don't think anyone's really expecting you to... except maybe you yourself, and that makes you seem a little wolvish to me.

So, do you not see the benefits that can be gained from taking the suspicions of others and logically answering them?

Let me ask, have you ever suspected an Ordo? (obvious answer- yes)

And the next question- has an Ordo ever been able to convince you via logic and reactions that he is innocent, and you turn your suspicions aside? (obvious answer- yes)

The fact is, an Ordo who does not attempt to defend himself is failing his duty to the village. If I suspect an Ordo, I expect him to tell me why I'm wrong! If he manages to convince me to take my eyes off of him, even just a little bit, then he has helped the village, for the whole point is to come to suspect Werewolves, not Ordos.

[Boromir88]

If he manages to convince me to take my eyes off of him, even just a little bit, then he has helped the village, for the whole point is to come to suspect Werewolves, not Ordos.~the phantom

Yes, that's the reason I like going for the full frontal assault, lots of suspicion directed at someone can end up clearing their name. Though sometimes I really do get carried away and am in a driver's seat with the blinders on.

If you're a wolf this looks almost like mockery, "Keep suspecting innocents with such fury, mwa-ha-ha"!~Agan

That's called paranoia darling, and it's quite understandable, I don't suspect some tea leaves will end up calming some of that down? Also, I fully am aware that what I have just done is the same exact thing that I suspected you yesterday after backing off Lommy. I'm hypocritical, what can I say? But, werewolf I am not.

Edit: crossed with Agan.

[Boromir88]

I'm "hovering"? And I'm "behind the scenes"?~the phantom

I think what Lommy is trying to say is while you are in no way whatsoever quiet, and there is no question you are the most vocal player, you're not overly committing towards any one way...well if that makes sense.

Or let me put it this way, you're around a lot, giving lots and lots of information but you're holding back a bit. Thus, you're "behind the scenes," you know...doing all the prep work.

But hey, like I said earlier, if you want to do all the homework keep going, makes my day a lot easier. No one should take your word for it, and just so you know (although I doubt I have to tell you this) when something strikes me, I double check to make sure you're not manipulating anything for some evil purpose...but yes I have to say it's served me extremely well as far as focusing and organizing, and I don't have to spend hours rummaging through the pages on where I thought I saw something suspicious/odd/innocent, whatever it is.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

Or let me put it this way, you're around a lot, giving lots and lots of information but you're holding back a bit.

Oh, you think that's what she meant? Well then, to that all I can say is- yeah. I am holding back thoughts. And you oughta be darn thankful that I am. Some things shouldn't be said.

Originally Posted by Boro

I double check to make sure you're not manipulating anything for some evil purpose

"For some evil purpose" being the key phrase here, because I absolutely am manipulating. I've said certain things about certain people to manipulate. But the key is, why? The answer- I'm trying to plant certain ideas with the WWs that will not benefit them. And the fact that I said that won't even help them figure out what things I'm talking about.

[Nerwen]

I have to go now, and may not be back in time to vote later.

So I will return the compliment:

++Lommy for rep

Because I'm thinking of her as likely innocent right now, and she usually has good judgement. I also would prefer to see a change of government.

EDIT: x'd since Boro at 539.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think what Lommy is trying to say is while you are in no way whatsoever quiet, and there is no question you are the most vocal player, you're not overly committing towards any one way...well if that makes sense.

Or let me put it this way, you're around a lot, giving lots and lots of information but you're holding back a bit. Thus, you're "behind the scenes," you know...doing all the prep work.

But hey, like I said earlier, if you want to do all the homework keep going, makes my day a lot easier. No one should take your word for it, and just so you know (although I doubt I have to tell you this) when something strikes me, I double check to make sure you're not manipulating anything for some evil purpose...but yes I have to say it's served me extremely well as far as focusing and organizing, and I don't have to spend hours rummaging through the pages on where I thought I saw something suspicious/odd/innocent, whatever it is.

Another word is puppetmaster...you don't really see him but he is controlling the show. I think that what Lommy feels and I do too to a degree.

[Nogrod]

I managed to peak in during the morning and will have a few comments on something there. Then I'm going to read what has been said after that.

And just fyi I'm sharing the computer with Greenie tonight (RL) so we will be posting in something like turns.

I don't know if you have come to a conclusion about McCaber being killed or not but to me it looks very puzzling indeed. And it makes me wonder. Why not tp? Why not Boro? Why not me? (add any player you think being a major threat to the wolves). There is no ranger so they roam free at Nights. So why not?

So Boro and tp and Lommy / Aganzir... (add your favourite wolf's bane here) are wolves and they let me live to see the other Day (just to attack me... it seems...)? It would sure be in the wolves' interest to get down players who'd threathen them. But they didn't.

And as the suggestion of there being those wolves looks a bit improbable I must think the wolves were actually after a seer. Even if it's Fea's game I'm not just ready to believe that he would have picked tp and Boro as wolves together with Lommy or Agan... or morm / Kath (if it's Fea who picks them)?

Which doesn't mean one of them wouldn't be a wolf... or two? I just can't believe they all are.

Maybe she could pull out that kind of thing?

But what's the other possibility?

If they thought of him as the seer? That would make sense... in a way. Killing the seer surely is the number one thing for the wolves. I have been a wolf enough many times to know what is the first priority of the wolves. But in this case I'm not too happy about this explanation either as I can't see anything seerish in McCaber's posting as it's more like his normal submarine-behaviour. But neither can I figure out a third way at this point.

[the phantom]

Boro, if you're around, could you do me a favor? Read this section I'm quoting from Nog and tell me if it reminds you strongly of anything.

It did me, but I worry that it is simply because I am biased in favor of not trusting Nog at this time, therefore anything he says is incriminating, where as if I found him innocent initially his post would instead convince me further of innocence.

Anyway, what do you think of this-

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't know if you have come to a conclusion about McCaber being killed or not but to me it looks very puzzling indeed. And it makes me wonder. Why not tp? Why not Boro? Why not me? (add any player you think being a major threat to the wolves). There is no ranger so they roam free at Nights. So why not?

So Boro and tp and Lommy / Aganzir... (add your favourite wolf's bane here) are wolves and they let me live to see the other Day (just to attack me... it seems...)? It would sure be in the wolves' interest to get down players who'd threathen them. But they didn't.

[mormegil]

Where is Shasta today? He had the second highest count yesterday and today he's nowhere to be found. I don't remember him mentioning that he would be gone.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Where is Shasta today? He had the second highest count yesterday and today he's nowhere to be found. I don't remember him mentioning that he would be gone.

Paper tech today. I'll be around in a few hours.

[Boromir88]

I'll save you the trouble of looking. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I wasn't sure, so I jumped in with everybody else.~Ilya

That's understandable, it's difficult to tell the difference between a bandwagoning wolf and an innocent who was convinced by someone else's arguments. That's why wolves bandwagon, because telling the difference between the two is near impossible. Although, the fact is bandwagoning is a sign of wolvish-ness and therefor anyone who does it should automatically be looked at.

I will also say you are quite the sweet talker, but I'm still a little wary. Because it either means you're genuine, innocent, or maybe you aren't as new to this as you are trying to convince people that you are?

Ok, I hope you can follow that last question, more of a rhetorical one from me though.

Why not tp? Why not Boro?~Nogrod

Well, I would move to pass the motion that since neither tp, nor myself died on Night 1, that Shasta and Mith are both in the clear.

[Boromir88]

It did me, but I worry that it is simply because I am biased in favor of not trusting Nog at this time, therefore anything he says is incriminating,~the phantom

Not exactly sure why you're asking me, I wouldn't be the most unbiased person to ask, because my strategies and styles have been absolutely warped by you, but anyway I will tell you what it reminds me of...

Reminds me of when you are a wolf, how you absolutely love to dangle "answers" right out in the hopeless innocents' faces, without leading them to the correct answer.

Like I said though, I'm probably not the best person you can ask, for a fair opinion...hmm too bad Agan left. Morm? Ilya?

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Nogrod;573476] Even if it's Fea's game I'm not just ready to believe that he would have picked [/QUOTE]

On behalf of the moddesses, I would say that we are all, all woman, all of the time. The fact that the computer system at work calls me Andrew is completly irrelevant.

The other moddesses are free to confirm or deny this. Or not.

[Nogrod]

Then just a few thoughts on those posts I felt kind of bad from the early hours of the Day.

Originally Posted by tp

Nog- I can't trust the guy at all. All of his dynamics talk seems like he's talking about that because he sure as heck can't talk about suspects

Now tp, you're either an innocent who tries to insult me saying that as a wolf I couldn't come up with a case out from nothing. Dear sir, please! Hit and try as hard as you can - that's the only way to find out who's who / what - but that one's bad, really. Somehow, coming from you, I really can't believe my eyes.

Or then you are a wolf trying to bring forwards suspicion on me to get rid of me "sportily" in the broad Daylight? Somehow I'd think you would have come up with a better idea.

So I can't quite believe that either. *baffled*

The same goes with the next one.

Originally Posted by tp

His support for Boro and I at times reminded me of the way I've treated other loudmouths as a WW.

You know it as well as I do that neither you or me, or Boro, or Lommy, or... would vote a contributing player out on Day1 unless there was a severe case to be made against that one. You argued yourself yesterDay that there are some people you just wished to have around - not because you think them innocent but because you'd like to have them around to see what they think. It's much easier (and more fun & challenging) to try to figure out someone who's there out in the open than just blindly guessing on someone who doesn't post or say anything (and it's not the number of posts but the content of them: two Nerwen's beat 11 MCCaber's... anyDay - sorry McCaber, one shouldn't talk bad on the the dead, but looking at your posts on Day1 kind of underlines that if you look at them content-wise).

So how come you tp think that if I act in the same way as you do it makes me look suspicious? What does it say of you?

Knowing what you're cabable of I must say I'm disappointed to you as a wolf. And it would be an insult if you were an innocent thinking me a possible wolf with this. What are you up to? Fea didn't talk of there being cobblers...


The other thing then:

Originally Posted by Boro

Ok, Gwath says Nog will keep the quiet ones on their toes, Gwath hasn't posted a lot...ya it's contradictory, but talk about a real weak (I would even call bogus) accusation of wolvish-ness.

Then he credits Gwath for questioning the phantom. What is it that teachers like to do now...the compliment sandwhich? This is really good, wow you suck here, but oh this is nice.

Ten points for the teacher-thing. I can absolutely see myself there...

But on the Gwath-suspicion. Sadly you left out the real point - or was it on purpose? I kind of remember you used a sig saying something like "for your safety and my sanity read all the thread"!!!

What I said about Gwath was this (talking from the devil's advocate point of view that is):

Originally Posted by me on #370

Like: "I know he tends to go after the submarines in the early Days so why not vote him to be a rep and say that the vote is for keeping an eye to the non-posters" - at the same time rubbing me the right way to make me choose someone else from the quiet-ones instead. So if he thought I was going after the more silent people anyway (and there was a good chance I was going to be voted as a rep anyhow looking at the posts before that point of the game) what would have been a better way to avoid my eye (well, it was a bad way if that was what was intended as I noticed it... a good try? )?

Let's spell it out then...

Think of Gwath as a wolf (take the devil's advocate point of view).

He knows I'm one of the loudest proponents of lynching the enigmatic people out on the first Days as it will get tougher Day by Day and the number of submarines may decide the whole game in the end.

He realises he's one of the possible targets (I've gotten him lynched pretty early a time or two on Day1 or 2).

So what does he think as he sees many people seem to trust me and I might be on my way to being a representative thus adding to his anguish (he is a wolf in this scenario, mind you)?

He makes a decent try by voting me to be his representative so that I would feel good about it and leave him out from my possible list of "lynching the quiets" because he trusted me! This is the point I voted for him, not that it was a contradicition.

Sorry Boro, but I get the feel that you are as well either disparaging my intelligence seriously or you are just throwing things forwards without actually reading the thread. Or then you're a wolf trying to get something on someone who is an innocent but make a pretty bad performance with it.

And I'm having serious hardship in trying to believe any of the possibilities.


And the last thing. You Boro say I'm giving pressure to Legate while voting Gwath - and that makes me suspicious.

I never vote Legate on Day1, neither I vote you, or tp, or Lommy or... unless there is a major case behind the suspicion. You know it. (and if not look up there for the explanation)

But what I'm used to is to kind of give all my last thoughts forwards before I go as I don't know whether I'm alive when the next Day comes. So I pointed to the fact that I suspected Legate for that "doing a Legate 180" and when I saw the Star Wars -thing I thought it noteworthy enough to point it out (I was wrong, yes; but had he been a wolf and I had not pointed to that one, I would have cursed aloud if I had been killed the last Night and Legate had gone on winning the game while I had noticed that little thing but had not voiced it).

I like your "cut the crap" -attitude Boro, but this is not it. Not the least as you were one of those who actually lynched Legate.

Are you trying to whitewash yourself? Turning the attention to others from your own guilt? Couldn't resist lynching an innocent loudmouth who could be on your way? Got a trophy from lynching Legate?


It's Day2 now and we're getting something more solid to base our thoughts on, btw.

Okay I'll let Greenie in but then I will look at the rest of the posting toDay.

Me, slow? Really?


EDIT: X'd with hundreds... and still not read even a third of toDay's posting... and leaving the PC to Greenie for a while. I'm catcjhing up though... but slowly.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

Now tp, you're either an innocent who tries to insult me saying that as a wolf I couldn't come up with a case out from nothing.

Wrong. That comment meant that you couldn't come up with anything because there wasn't in truth anything to come up with. I never said that you couldn't fake it in a believable way.

I think you're misunderstanding my distrust of you. I'm suspecting you not on any sort of slip, or logical contradiction, but rather on the attitude that I am attempting to read behind your posts. Two people can say the same exact thing and have entirely different attitudes.

Example:
Person 1 and 2 both voice suspicion of person 3. But when I read their posts I interpret them like this-
1- I'm an Ordo that doesn't know who to suspect. Right now Person 3 looks suspicious to me.
2- I'm a WW and I want you to lynch wrong. Person 3 looks like a good target.

Originally Posted by Nog

You know it as well as I do that neither you or me, or Boro, or Lommy, or... would vote a contributing player out on Day1 unless there was a severe case to be made against that one.

Indeed. I'm not suspecting you for not going after or voting for one of us on Day 1. I'm suspecting you because when I read what you say it reminds me of what I'd say if I were a WW.

That's what all this is based on Nog- what I'm hearing behind the words. I could be completely wrong, because no two people think exactly alike. If I can I'm going to go back to a game in which you are innocent and read it a bit and see if I can get a better feel of how you talk and such.

I'm not ready to hang you now, but I don't trust you enough to make you a Rep either. We'll see as the day unfolds which way I am swayed.

[A Little Green]

The list.

I'M WORRIED ABOUT (in no particular order):
Eönwë - His points are mostly vague and what is most worrisome is that he slips completely under my radar to an extent that it seems deliberate.
Nogrod - My theory about why he suddenly jumped on Legate on poor grounds combined with the night kill of McCaber (yes, I too thought about Nog or someone framing Nog being behind it...) makes me feel uneasy about him.
Gwathagor - Another worrisome submarine. I didn't like his rep vote yesterDay, and he seems to me to be more of a submarine than he usually is.
Aganzir - She no longer gives me innocent vibes so she belongs in this category. I don't know why, maybe it's because she seems more tense and more stressed than usual.
Ilya - Like has been said before, her part in yesterDay's voting looked like easy bandwagoning and made me uneasy when I read it.
Brinniel - I don't like her reasons for voting Legate. Otherwise she has given me no reason to suspect her so I don't, but I'm not as certain about her innocence as I used to and will keep an eye on her.

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT (likewise):
Boromir88 - Seems genuine and brings up good valid points.
Lommy - She doesn't look at all guilty to me at this point.
mormegil - Has given me no reason whatsoever to suspect him. Feels genuine and reasonable and raises good points.
the phantom - Currently I don't think he is a baddie. Currently, mind you.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER TO BE WORRIED OR NOT:
Gil-Galad - Really too little substance to draw conclusions from.
Kath - Rudolph loves her, that's for sure...
Nerwen - No read, though she isn't even among the most quiet players. That woman is just sneaky. I have no idea about her.
Rune - No idea yet. I'd like to see more of him.
Sally - No idea.
Shasta - Now he has been posting quite a lot, but still I have no idea about him.
The Ka - Now if Nerwen is sneaky, then what is Ka? (answer: very sneaky.)

Hmmm. At this point, I think my rep vote might go for morm or Lommy. I'd like to see new faces among the reps, and they both are innocentish and reasonable players who I think could do well as reps.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan and Boro

[the phantom]

As far as Reps, I'd like to see these people-

Agan
Boro
Green
Kath
Rune

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Aganzir - She no longer gives me innocent vibes so she belongs in this category. I don't know why, maybe it's because she seems more tense and more stressed than usual.

Elaborate on more tense and more stressed than usual.
And tell me why I belong to Worried-category if I no longer give you innocent vibes. Isn't there a grey zone as well, or am I so suspicious that ony those innocent vibes kept you from defining me as downright suspicious right away?

I'm working on Ilya but I don't think I get my project finished since I should leave in something like ten minutes. I'll post what I have then, though.

[Ilya]

Ilya - her vote yeterDay makes me raise eyebrows. Looks like idle opportunistic bandwagoning.

I'll save you the trouble of looking. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I wasn't sure, so I jumped in with everybody else. It was safe, which I guess is why it looks wolfish. I would also propose it looks like a newbie who only wants to stay in the game long enough until she can get the hang of it, and then start alienating people, but I can't decide for you. As to the whole Agan/Lommy thing and my opinions thereon, I still dunno what to make of it. I've been vacillating on that. I want to look at the text and there's not all that much there, though not for lack of posting. But something about it doesn't feel right to me. I'm suspicious of Agan, and I suppose I'm fumbling because I cannot for the life of me find anything to back it up. Boro and tp were really the people who's analysis I was paying attention to all day, and I haven't even looked at them from a suspicious POV. So, I'm gonna keep myself from posting for another hour, at least, and then I'll come back, hopefully with less doubts and agreements and more opinions.

Edit: Man, I already caved on the let's-not-post-and-just-take-notes. Agan, a "charismatic wolf" would be someone who has a bead on the general suspicions of the reps and would be able to do exactly what Boro did to me yesterday: cast a vote with authority, and convince me to jump on the bandwagon. It wasn't such an issue for the other reps, though, in practice, which is all the more awkward for me, I guess. I don't think I had you confused with Legate, but I'll go back and look what I wrote again. The Gil-Shasta did strike me as odd, because I know that Gil's usually quite canny, and so I thought, maybe, you know, it was a staged thing.

Ok, now I really am going to go reread the thread, and not just post that I'm reading it and instead go to YouTube.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by morm

For me, Agan, I've been in these very arguements with Lommy, they have almost been identical and it turned out that it was two innocents going at each other.

I know, I've been in those too and I still can't help it.

Originally Posted by sally

Heh. Had to giggle at the rainbow comments.

They were originally a slip of mine when I was talking about WW with her ages ago in RL, and now she's using them to her own ends!

I have way too little time left but I see if I can go through Ilya's posts before leaving.

At the moment I think I could vote either Boro or Shasta, maybe morm or phantom as well.

[Aganzir]

First she just speculates game mechanics - differences between the weight of reps, and possible uses of filibuster; seer's province (why? Would the seer risk him-/herself just to save one known innocent?) or someone's who's wishing to avoid lynching, especially wolves' - later she voted against filibuster. Then she suggested that as the game progresses, it might be good to have a method of empowering reps so as to mitigate a charismatic wolf from ruling the reps. Now that I think of it, I don't quite understand what that means. Could you explain?
She also agreed that a limited number of reps would be necessary, and suggested seven.

On her list of suspicions she said eg. she's naturally highly suspicious of Brinn because everybody seems to trust her (explained later: she got two votes so early but Ilya couldn't remember if there was anything else she was afraid of about her). Di's post felt weird to her. All Legate's posts made sense but there were too many of them. Suggested it's a good idea to vote both loudmouths and lurkers for reps, but we should "let at least one experienced writes-a-lot have the power to vote, so that all the reps can't fall back on tp's or Legate's or Shasta's Day 2 arguments." Now, how could all the reps do that since everybody is allowed to talk and make suggestions, anyway?

She voted Boro for her rep despite being not quite sure about him, but his logic is sound and points worth consideration. Not sure if it's just me but I think there's something too nice in this reasoning.

She said she wouldn't want to vote anyone who already had one vote (Eönwë, Gwath, Legate).
Then there's post #407 which looks worth a look but I don't have time for it now.

Originally Posted by me

According to Ilya, I backed off of Lommy in a way that parroted what a lot of other people had said, and she didn't know what to think of that. I find this ignorant if not downright suspicious - it's rather she who's parroting what other people (Boro) have said instead of checking the facts herself. She's throwing a thing in the open without a comment of her own, like, "Look at this and reach your own conclusions! *wink wink*", and that's something I don't particularly like. Besides, before Boro people had just said Lommy and I were probably innocent, and it's weird how quickly Ilya's opinion changed (from not knowing what to think but apparently not finding very suspicious to suspecting) after accusations had seemingly started to pop up.

This is one thing I found suspicious about her, too.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Does anybody else find it odd that Agan and Brinn voted for each other, and now Brinn is questioning Agan? There may be nothing to it, but Agan has been a little hard to follow, at least for me, and it just muddles things further.

A question - when you said "Agan has been a little hard to follow," did you mean Legate or me since you had us two confused in your post anyway?

After Legate started to seem like the obvious lynch, she said she needed another reread before making up her mind. She said she didn't feel she had enough to go for Eönwë or Gwath. Then a quote which I find suspicious:

Originally Posted by Ilya

Legate has two votes now. I'm giving his long post one more go, and if I'm still as suspicious as I am right now, I'm gonna vote.

Voted Legate with a quote

I'm still not satisfied, but Boro is right. The reality of a death may tell us more about our reasoning than keeping someone around and doing more guesswork.

Sorry I'm just posting quotes instead of summarizing things myself but I just don't have the time.

Cab struck her as a safe kill.

Edit: Will stick around for tp's list, because I want to see an alternative view to the gut suspicious I had of Agan.

That was about it.

I will be xing with everybody since my last post. I read quickly what's been posted in the meanwhile and vote for a rep, and then I must run or my friend will kill me.

[Aganzir]

My suspicion list is now as follows (in no particular order):
Ilya
Eönwë
Greenie
Lommy (not that I'm actively suspecting her, I just want to keep an eye on her)
Nog (keeping an eye on him until I have time to go through his posts)
Nerwen (I agree with morm's latest about her - planning to go through her posts when I have time anyway)

++Boro for rep

I really have no time to think about it more now and I trust him.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

My suspicion list is now as follows (in no particular order):
Ilya
Eönwë
Greenie
Lommy (not that I'm actively suspecting her, I just want to keep an eye on her)
Nog (keeping an eye on him until I have time to go through his posts)
Nerwen (I agree with morm's latest about her - planning to go through her posts when I have time anyway)

I will continue to be around on and off for the rest of the day (RL), I should be around most of tomorrow (RL) but perhaps a bit more intermitent. Anyway I am going to vote for Aganzir as my Rep because a lot of her suspects are those who I suspect, namely Nerwen being the top. I would like my rep to vote the way I feel and since I have a greater degree of trust in Agan than many others it's a satisfactory match for my vote.

++Aganzir for Rep

As far as the Nog, Tummy (phantom), Boro conversation goes I find it interesting and am modifying my opinions of them. Boro still has my trust the other two do not. I believe Nogrod has been called into question enough to narrow my list down to Agan, Boro, and Brinn of those I would trust to be a rep. I think making Nerwen a rep, as she already has one vote, would be interesting to see how she handles it but I'm not willing to throw my vote her way to make sure she is.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by morm

Another word is puppetmaster...you don't really see him but he is controlling the show. I think that what Lommy feels and I do too to a degree.

When's the last time you couldn't say this about me? It rather seems like suspecting person X because they are, in fact, person X.

Perhaps I should suspect Nogrod for posting more than once yesterday. Or perhaps I'll suspect Brin for posting in English.

[the phantom]

Ah, good. Boro has a vote.

I'm interested to see what Nerwen does if she gains power. I still don't trust her. But we'll see.

As far as Lommy, on one hand I'd like to think she's innocent because she seems paranoid. On the other hand I would have thought that after just being a Werewolf with me in my last game she'd have recognized McCaber as definitely not my handiwork.

EDIT: x-post Boro

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Boro

You better believe it, I don't want my underground hints that would lead the entire village into believing that I was the seer to be broadcasted all over the village. Alright, I promise to give up the grand show, as I have obviously struck out, failed, wolves didn't bite...time for me to accept the ordinariness - :ugh: it can get so boring.

Ha ha ha!

I was going to do a Seer show as well, but I was saving it for tomorrow. I figured if the Seer lived through tonight and I could buy him/her/it a fourth dream that it'd be well worth it.

And the fact that I came right out and said this will make my act no less effective. The WWs will discuss me as a kill choice tonight. "He's screwing with us!" "No, that's just what he wants us to think!"

[Boromir88]

And you oughta be darn thankful that I am. Some things shouldn't be said.~the phantom

You better believe it, I don't want my underground hints that would lead the entire village into believing that I was the seer to be broadcasted all over the village. Alright, I promise to give up the grand show, as I have obviously struck out, failed, wolves didn't bite...time for me to accept the ordinariness - :ugh: it can get so boring.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Ilya:
Nerwen:
Nerwen and Ilya falls under the same cathegory in my mind. First of all I have had a hard time figuring them out and constantly switches between thinking them innocent or wolves, I guess it is often like this in the early stages. I get that feeling that their contributions are fabricated in order to seem helpful, but of course it is hard to determine what is genuine and what is not. What more is Ilya’s respons to accusations confuses me. . . sometimes I just have a hard time understanding what she means and have to read it over a few time and that might have gotten stuck in my mind and make me uneasy about her. She is fast to admit to playing it flip-flopping and other stuff, this could be a way of trying to kill the accusations before they become a major case.


Aganzir: Her way of tracking wolves and posting annoys me. Also I have trouble telling apart what is just “normal” Aganzir and what is suspicious, so I would also like her to go simply to make my life easier. Also I don’t get why it is much more suspicious to say you’re a newbie in subtle way, than doing it straight forward. (ok Boromir just explained it, I don’t know what to make of it)

Brinniel:I guess the reason that she is on this list is because I don’t follow her reasoning and her posting of late has been of little substance, except for her defence of a fixed/preferred number of representatives.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I just realised that I have totaly overlooked The Ka, but you I will wait till tomorrow before I take a look at her posts.

I will see you guys latter.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Also I don’t get why it is much more suspicious to say you’re a newbie in subtle way, than doing it straight forward. (ok Boromir just explained it, I don’t know what to make of it)

Think it this way: you're a wolf and want to bluff by doing something you would never do as a wolf. When someone suspects you of it, is it better for you to say "I would never do so as a wolf" or wait till someone else says "He would never do so as a wolf"? The former is more suspicious.
Now, you're a newbie wolf. You might be suspected if you said "I did it just because I'm new, no-no I didn't have any dark intents," but if you suggested subtly that it might have happened because you're new and don't quite know how to react to different situations, it would be easier for people to believe it since it would feel more like they had come up with it themselves. What struck me as suspicious in Ilya was how she looked like she was consciously and carefully trying to use the less suspicion-raising manner.

Do you get my point?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I get it, but Boromir is better at explaining it.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Notice, for general reference:

There are wolves, I promise. I picked them out myself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Or maybe I didn't pick them out myself. But they do definitely exist. That part's definitely true, I think.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Or maybe I didn't pick them out myself. But they do definitely exist. That part's definitely true, I think.

Sure you don't want to plead the fifth there Fea?

However we are working on the basis they exist - known knowns to us at least. To you they are known unknowns - unknown unknowns are at the Moddesses' discretion.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Think it this way: you're a wolf and want to bluff by doing something you would never do as a wolf. When someone suspects you of it, is it better for you to say "I would never do so as a wolf" or wait till someone else says "He would never do so as a wolf"? The former is more suspicious.
Now, you're a newbie wolf. You might be suspected if you said "I did it just because I'm new, no-no I didn't have any dark intents," but if you suggested subtly that it might have happened because you're new and don't quite know how to react to different situations, it would be easier for people to believe it since it would feel more like they had come up with it themselves. What struck me as suspicious in Ilya was how she looked like she was consciously and carefully trying to use the less suspicion-raising manner.

Do you get my point?

Agan makes an interesting point here. Ilya seems a bit too smooth for a newbie, I must stay. Now I'm not saying that new players automatically suck, but she's been too smooth (smooth? maybe just well-integrated) for a new player. It worries me a bit. I'll have to take a good look at her at some point, but for now I'm going to just keep an eye on her. (And by at some point, I obviously mean as soon as I get a chance)

[Boromir88]

Whatever. I know every book relating to WW backward and forward.~tp

Haven't you written every book relating to WW?

[Ilya]

What I mean is, trying to avoid saying straight that you are new, although you make it quite clear in a more subtle way, looks suspicious to me. And it looks like you were trying to do just that. And it looks suspicious because you're trying to excuse your participating in a bandwagon (or any other suspicious thing you might do) by saying you're just a newbie.

Oh, ok. I get it. I wasn't trying to excuse my behavior by playing the new card, in fact that's why I didn't mention the newbie thing to begin with - because it could be seen as fishing for innocence. I said I jumped on the bandwagon because I was suspicious of Legate but I wasn't sure, and I trusted Boro, so I went with his vote. I mean, it's partly because I'm new and nervous about being perceived in a way that'll keep me around, but it was mostly because I suspected Legate and trusted Boro's judgement, and I think my posting reflects that. What were some of the subtle ways that I hinted at it?

As to the method thing, it had to do with keeping all the reps at the same level of voting power, ie. not end up in a situation where somebody has 6 and all the others have 2. Just, you know, being aware of spreading the wealth. I dunno what I would suggest for a method. I think we've been doing that without any formal rules or any such structure.

What more is Ilya’s respons to accusations confuses me. . . sometimes I just have a hard time understanding what she means and have to read it over a few time and that might have gotten stuck in my mind and make me uneasy about her. She is fast to admit to playing it flip-flopping and other stuff, this could be a way of trying to kill the accusations before they become a major case.

People don't admit when they're wrong in this game? I was as wrong as wrong could be yesterday. I'm still making mistakes. You can talk about them for the rest of the day, and indeed no matter what I write I think that y'all will, but I'd rather have it on record that I admitted them when they were pointed out to me. I'll try and be clearer for you, Rune. Just tell me where it's muddled.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Ilya

What were some of the subtle ways that I hinted at it?

This was the thing I quoted in the post where I first mentioned it.

Originally Posted by Ilya

It was safe, which I guess is why it looks wolfish. I would also propose it looks like a newbie who only wants to stay in the game long enough until she can get the hang of it, and then start alienating people, but I can't decide for you.

edit: xed with Loomie

[Ilya]

Ah. Yeah. You know, I was on the fence about whether to even write that or not. A cloying type thing but I decided to go for it. I was anxious about ending a thought with "and that looks wolfish," because then people would think I was trying to buy sympathy for admitting that I what did looked like a wolf move. Now I realize I don't have to cater my thoughts to you people.