Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Thinlómien]

If Mac is aknowledging that Rikae is attacking him just as a joke, why does he bother to defend himself? Is he a bit jumpy maybe?

edit: xed with Groin -

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If Mac is aknowledging that Rikae is attacking him just as a joke, why does he bother to defend himself? Is he a bit jumpy maybe?

For the record, just because I add a joke to something, doesn't mean I'm entirely joking.
Now, does Mac know that? Is he being jumpy? It's possible, I suppose.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Rikae

For the record, just because I add a joke to something, doesn't mean I'm entirely joking.

I thought you were... I thought that your third point was there kind of just turn the setting around and announce you're accusing him just because of principle, not because you really suspect him.

[Groin Redbeard]

Okay I have to be leaving soon so I'll give you my analysis so far.

Legate: Back to his usual self: giving good analysis and entering in the disscussion to help stimulate a chance of catching a real wolf.

Lommy: Silly.

Aganzir: Trying to sound like she's helping everyone by posting and showing that she's here. Her posts are somewhat helpful, but they're mostly full of petty arguments on the best way to capture a wolf (something along those lines).

Rikae: No clue yet, seems intent on getting Mac lynched.

That's it, I'll be back later.

EDIT: Xed 2Aganzir, 1Fea, 2Lommy

[Brinniel]

Okay, in an attempt to get the game straight...

We have an unknown amount of lovers, but after the Night phase we will have a somewhat idea of how many there are. Then again, how will we know if a player's been successfully protected by the ranger? Or what happens if two pairs of lovers choose the same kill...will only that player die or will one pair get to pick again? Also, if one pair of lovers kills the another pair, does the doomed pair still get to kill?

The rules here are rather vague, and it seems as usual I'm confused...

The idea that each pair gets a separate kill is a bit scary...the Nights could end up as quite a slaughter. Then again, the fact that the lovers go down together means that we only have to kill half of how many baddies there are out there...which I suppose evens things up a bit.

Btw, the Day might've started out quiet, but now it's so active I'm having trouble keeping up with everyone.

EDIT: X-ed with a gazillion posts...

[Thinlómien]

Okay, Brinn, in an attempt to get this game straight I will answer your questions and tell what I think...

Then again, how will we know if a player's been successfully protected by the ranger?

In a vast majority of the ww games I've played in, the succesfull protection can be read in the narration.

Or what happens if two pairs of lovers choose the same kill...will only that player die or will one pair get to pick again?

It would make far more sense to me that only the one person would die. I mean, why would one pair get another chance then? And how would it be determined which one will get the new kill? The ones who submitted their kill later? What if tha players are not around to give a new name? Too complicated, I say.

Also, if one pair of lovers kills the another pair, does the doomed pair still get to kill?

I would assume that they would.


edit: xed with Rikae, Agan and Brinn

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now, does Mac know that? Is he being jumpy? It's possible, I suppose.

First she disassociates herself from him by suspecting him, then she defends him. But would Di really make them a couple just to tease us?

x-ed with Agan again

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

Hah now I know what's the problem with me! My avvie! Lommy once said she can't take anything I say seriously while I have this avatar.

I just really can't!

Originally Posted by Mac

Lommy is too nice and seems to try to not make any enemies (apart from Aganzir).

I'm not trying to make enemies with her! Do you want proof? For I was just thinking that she looks more and more innocent as the Day proceeds.

Originally Posted by Agan

Oh and before long you will probably find out that my throat is very popular among these lonely people. Fetishists...

Really too bad - I first read "Fenrisists" and thought "ha! caught you!"...

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Lommy is always crazy (well, at least in WW)

Why thank you.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Nogrod - Has been surprisingly quiet, I wonder if this is again one of those games where he promises to talk less...

Well, I wouldn't be worried - it's less than 9pm, he could still be at work and returning about this time and then be around here until the wee hours of the morning... Haha.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Aren't you being jumpy? Picking out anyone who might be the slightest bit suspicious, or just simply wants to defend themselves so early in the game (After all, despite what I said in my above post, it's better- or at least more sensible- if we kill the wolves now. Both ways its down to luck and vague suspicions, at least this early in the game).

No, I'm merely trying to find suspiciousish behaviour. Too bad if there isn't very much of it at this phase yet.

Now that I've been thinking, I've got the feeling there's something odd about Rikae.

[Eönwë]

Is it me, or is it just us Europeans at this time of day (night- well, 7 here, but it's dark).

[Thinlómien]

Alright then, let's force Lommy to think more about this all...

Groin - innocent enough. He's calling me silly, though.
Aganzir - my opinion of her varies from jumpy baddie to a sweet flibbertigibbet. Currently, I'm not worried. (And even if I were, I wouldn't vote her toDay. She hasn't played ww for ages and I like her contribution.)
Legate - does not worry me.
Kitanna - doesn't reveal much of herself. I think she tends to be more silent when she's evil but it would be very hasty draw that kind of conclusions at this phase of the game.
Gollum - don't have an opinion on yet.
Nogrod - is ghastlily silent. Where is he?
Brinniel - my greenish sister said: "Nice and confused, as always. No idea of what her role could be." and I can agree with that statement.
Sally - her normal self, which sadly does not mean we can trust her (yet).
Rikae - I can't pinpoint it, but she seems a little odd to me. Maybe she does too sharp turns, or something.
Mac - well, despite everything I've said, he seems innocentish to me, although it would be foolish to be anything close to certain. He just seems more like his innocent self than his guilty self... but I know, he has fooled me before.
Fea - innocentish, but I'd rather vote myself than bet on it.
Greenie - no idea yet.
Eönwë - another young gentleman who calls me silly. More innocent than guilty, but that means absolutely nothing at this phase.
Lalaith - not enough to form an opinion on. Smart as always, for sure.
McCaber, Shasta, Gwath & Eomer - given how innocent the others seem in general, they must be all evil.

Ouch, no idea who to vote and bed-time approaches... I have a feeling I might vote someone who has not contributed much but given the weird deadline it does seem a little unfair...


edit: xed with Kittie

[Nogrod]

Oh my!

I predicted the game would gain some speed a few hours ago only to find that there are something like one and half pages of stuff written between my last visit here and now...

To answer Lommy shortly about my "ghastly silence" as I can see her post right up above: working... sadly, working...

But I'll stick to reading the thread now and will be back shortly, hopefully with something to say.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Noggy

I looked back at the previous installment of this game. There were five deaths on the first gameNight: watcher, one pair of lovers and two ordos. So about 1/4th of the village was wiped out in a single Night.

Oh the carnage...at least a pair of lovers was killed, right? (insert hopeful smile)

Originally Posted by Legate

Kit is hardly saying anything, could be wishing to slip under the radar.

Curse that busy schedule of mine.

Originally Posted by Rikae

3) After the last game, I swore to do my utmost to get him lynched on day one.

About Mac.

Originally Posted by Groin

Sounds fair enough. I promised that I'd lynch her if I ever played with her again.

About Agan

Originally Posted by sally

I'm up for it too.

Agan again...
There seems to be a lot of vengeance out in this village. I feel left out because I don't have anyone to take revenge out on.

But in seriousness (even if for a moment) is the idea that Lommy and Legate had jumped out to a few people. I want to take a look into those who suggested it and Lommy and Legate themselves. I see nothing particularly odd about either so I'd like to see what makes them so suspicious to the few (sally and Mac I remember off the bat) who brought them up.

Also this from Rikae makes me wonder:

2) Di wouldn't make both Mac and I ordos. Ergo, he has a role, and, judging by point #1, that role is an evil one.
I realize this point doesn't do anyone any good until I'm dead, but that shouldn't take long when Mac is evil.

Very easily her attempt to see Mac lynched is a joke, but at the same time...

For the record, just because I add a joke to something, doesn't mean I'm entirely joking.
Now, does Mac know that? Is he being jumpy? It's possible, I suppose.

So her suspicions of Mac are half-serious. What worries me about this is it feels like a bluff. Something like "Well, I'm obviously innocent and you'll completely and utterly regret lynching me, so don't even try." At first glance the first quote from Rikae didn't seem all that bad, but as I reread it I started to worry. It looks like Rikae is trying a bit too hard to cement herself as an innocent.

Originally Posted by Agan

Mac's response to Rikae looks a bit like, I don't know, wolfish...Mac just seems to be too quick to forget the gifted factor, like a wolf trying to think like an innocent but not wholly succeeding. Does anybody understand what I mean?

I get what you're saying, but given how I feel about Rikae's "accusation", I don't know how suspicious Mac really is. Maybe Mac was jumpy, but innocents can get jumpy and defensive too.

I am still frantically trying to read through the posts, but I have to attend to a few other things first. I will probably vote in a little less than an hour and a half, hopefully I'll get a chance to look at those who pointed out Lommy and Legate.

[Aganzir]

Okay I read quickly through the thread in order to see if anything should catch my eye.

I think Mac and Rikae are weird.

Originally Posted by Rikae

1) He pops in early on day 1 bursting with overconfidence that he knows exactly how this game will go down - ie, just like the last.

I agree about this.

However, Rikae's certainty that Mac has a role because she hasn't is strange. The point that Di wouldn't make them both ordos is just bad. There's a certain likelihood that two good players get a special role, but there are many others than Mac and Rikae as well - and who knows if the roles were selected randomly? In any case, it definitely isn't a point I would use against somebody, and to me it seems Rikae should know better, too. I don't find it that surprising that Lommy thought her accusations of Mac were a joke.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

If you look back on my past wolf appearances, you will see that the bursting and overconfident wolves usually ended up as very early roadkill. Why should I play like that if I was evil?

Saying "As a wolf, I wouldn't do this" isn't really the best possible way to defend oneself.

Originally Posted by Mac

Last time she semi-randomized the roles, so it might actually be possible we're on the same side at last. Otherwise, since I know I'm innocent, you're evil, which would mean that I would have to try to get you lynched, which I rather wouldn't.

This quote just keeps bothering me... Really I know it's quite petty but that on the same side just feels wrong. I can't explain it (I tried to write my thoughts down but got so mixed up that decided to let it be).
I don't know - Mac just seems to find the idea that one of them has a role so normal, so casual... And to him role only means either an ordo or a baddie - no thoughts about possible giftedness. Like "if you don't (at least pretend to) believe I'm innocent I will have to lynch you, so better believe it!" Sorry, this is unclear. I just can't put it any better.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

You can't just assume your audience knows what you're talking about: so before you get to the point, you make sure everybody's got a bit of foundational knowledge.

That's a totally different matter. You don't get a bit of foundational knowledge by speculating.
I still think Fea's reasons as to why we should talk about the possible roles are bad. The last one (about the chance of slipping) wasn't as bad as the earlier ones, but even it looked more like she had just come up with it suddenly after running out of other reasons. I doubt very much anyone would slip anything, and therefore all rule talk seems to me more like a futile thing to do.
I'm not saying you couldn't do it, I just don't see the sense in it.
I remember once asking a player if she encouraged speculating and trying to get into some conclusion because she was afraid of slipping something she shouldn't have known and therefore wanted some public agreement about how things most likely could be. It came to my mind now.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Bolding mine -
where did that come from? Kind of out of the blue...

The tone of this post is somewhat accusing, as if Rikae tried to indicate she had caught me slipping something. Dunno - too surprised-sounding to sound honest. Overreacting to a comment. (For the record, it was the sentence where I said we couldn't know if the baddies had both a team and lovers.)

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Ergo, anybody denying the validity of creating hypothetical lists either doesn't understand the significance of seeking motive, or doesn't want to have to construct posts which look more innocent than they are.

You know, it sounds a bit like you were implying that speculating about rules instead of people is more significant when trying to pester out the baddies and their lovers, which is certainly not the case.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

If we force discussion about a specific topic, we force what will essentially be a series of lies from people who know more than everybody else about what's going on. The more lies a person is forced to tell, the easier it is to pick out inconsistencies, as well as it being easier to glean knowledge we probably wouldn't otherwise have.

You're really too keen on that rule discussion now.

Actually I think Fea could be a lover or something - the way she stubbornly sets out to defend the pros of rule discussion is odd, and especially taken to such lengths, it doesn't sound entirely honest.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Lommy is too nice and seems to try to not make any enemies (apart from Aganzir).

I agree she's being somewhat too nice.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm not trying to make enemies with her! Do you want proof? For I was just thinking that she looks more and more innocent as the Day proceeds.

What you refrained from saying when replying to Mac actually says: "I'm being too nice and try not to make any enemies, not even Agan!"
Lommy is really too tra-la-la-ley, happy and nice.

So now if I had to make a list of people who have posted enough to catch my attention in a negative way thus far, it'd consist of Mac, Rikae, Lommy and Fea.

edit: xed with Kit, Lom, Leg & Nog

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I remember once asking a player if she encouraged speculating and trying to get into some conclusion because she was afraid of slipping something she shouldn't have known and therefore wanted some public agreement about how things most likely could be. It came to my mind now.

I assure you with all seriousness and all understanding of the implications of the statement: if I was going to slip something, I'd do it on purpose.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Actually I think Fea could be a lover or something - the way she stubbornly sets out to defend the pros of rule discussion is odd, and especially taken to such lengths, it doesn't sound entirely honest.

What in the world makes you think I want to be honest?

Originally Posted by Mac

I'm not comfortable with the general focus of suspicions at the moment (almost exclusively me, Rikae, Aganzir, and Lommy). Too many people got by without anybody noticing.

And here I thought that we were supposed to be excited about the number of bad guys, what with it meaning that our suspicions can exist with impunity.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As for submarines, have we all Europeans forgotten that only a bit more than a half of the first day has passed? They have well time to appear although most of us might not be around then.

Gracias, m'dear. I know I for one have been in classes or at work for the better part of the past ten hours. But after that I'm basically free until I go to bed a couple hours before deadline. This is possibly the most convenient deadline period I've ever played in: I'm actually around for most of the second half of the day.

Originally Posted by Nog

So far I have seen Kitanna defend Mac twice. Mac has been under pressure and Kitanna has really not stated any more elaborated reasons for her backing of him.

Sorry, stupid question: Lovers know each others' identities, right? They're not fumbling in the dark hoping they don't accidentally kill their counterpart?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If Mac is aknowledging that Rikae is attacking him just as a joke, why does he bother to defend himself? Is he a bit jumpy maybe?

Aren't you being jumpy? Picking out anyone who might be the slightest bit suspicious, or just simply wants to defend themselves so early in the game (After all, despite what I said in my above post, it's better- or at least more sensible- if we kill the wolves now. Both ways its down to luck and vague suspicions, at least this early in the game).

I'm definitely going to x-post so I won't even bother writing who with.

edit: turns out it's only Aganzir.