A hundredth re-read of the LotR

[Thinlómien]

I like this chapter very much. It has a wonderful atmosphere and it features two of my favourite minor characters - the fox and Gildor Inglorion. The fox - much discussed elsewhere, I think - is an intriguing little glimpse to something, and Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Originally Posted by alatar

And speaking of sniffing, why does Tolkien via mostly Pippin make such a big deal that the creatures hunt by smell, and yet later on this becomes a pretty boring detail?

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

One thing I really admire in Tolkien's writing in this chapter is how the Nazgûl's visit to Hobbiton is organised. How Frodo hears the dialogue and almosts goes to talk with the Gaffer, and how Sam later expands upon this. It's what I would call masterful storytelling.

Also, I realised I like Sam less when I read about him in English than in Finnish. Weird.

And Pippin then, he gives me the impression of a young aristocrat on a nice little trip - which is what he is. But it never struck me like that. Actually, he reminds me (to an extent) of the men in the novels of Jane Austen, for example.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Boring detail? Like, do you mean that it becomes a trivial fact and is not used anymore?

Okay, look at from my point of view: even at an early age I was into science. We read about all of this sniffing. "Don't forget to ask about the sniffing!" It is emphasized, and so it must be important. Something completely unusual about these unearthly creatures...

And what does it all mean? That they smell our blood or something?

Does that mean that the Nazgul are going to the dogs?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Okay, look at from my point of view: even at an early age I was into science. We read about all of this sniffing. "Don't forget to ask about the sniffing!" It is emphasized, and so it must be important. Something completely unusual about these unearthly creatures...

And what does it all mean? That they smell our blood or something?

Does that mean that the Nazgul are going to the dogs?

Hey, but what exactly do you lack there? It's discussed at the Weathertop, Merry or who is it asks that once again ("They seem to use more their smell than their sight" or something like that), and then there follows this explanation of the Nazgul's senses in daylight etc.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Hey, but what exactly do you lack there?

It just seems a bit overhyped earlier in the story. I withdraw the nitpicking observation.

[Lalwendë]

A few things from this chapter...because some proper posting will do me good .....

At the south end of the greensward there was an opening. There the green floor ran on into the wood, and formed a wide space like a hall, roofed by the boughs of trees. Their great trunks ran like pillars down each side. In the middle there was a wood-fire blazing, and upon the tree-pillars torches with lights of gold and silver were burning steadily. The Elves sat round the fire upon the grass or upon the sawn rings of old trunks. Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.

This has always reminded me of tales of Druidic groves, sacred spaces formed by great Oaks, almost like buildings. I think from reading that for the very first time in my early teens I started thinking of Elves as these magical creatures, as if they held some 'secret'. This might be the beginning of a journey for the Hobbits, but that was also a great beginning for me. In my quest to find out this magical secret of the Elves I've spent the years since delving into history, folklore, all kinds of things. I've never found that secret yet though.

And is it an old, old place, a grove used by other Elves? It sounds like it...

Sam could never describe in words, nor picture clearly to himself, what he felt or thought that night, though it remained in his memory as one of the chief events of his life.

That chimes with my own feelings when I pick up that old copy of Fellowship and feel that intangible thrill I felt when I was first reading the book. It takes me right back, but there's no way I could describe how I felt, and how I still feel like that when I pick up that old book, which is by me now.

To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of his last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday: Bilbo's one hundred and twentyeighth. It seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable.

This is why I love the early chapters of the book so much. It's the sense of loss. After having been made to feel right at home in The Shire, a familiar place enough to anyone brought up in the English countryside, you have to leave it with Frodo, and his feelings are the same as my own when I have to leave behind a place I love. There's a journey you've been itching to get started on but when it comes to it, you delay leaving.

I understand that need to 'savour' too, to get your fill of the familiar places you've loved and yet in some way also found boring - when you have to leave them they suddenly don't seem so dull any more, but precious.

Anyway, I'll leave it here for tonight with a piece of Tolkien's writing that might not be about Elves, is not about a glorious city, or a furious battle, nor even about a beautiful foreign land, but about home and probably one of my favourite descriptions of anything in Middle-earth. I've often posted about how when I hear Vaughan Williams music I think of Bilbo and Frodo having to leave The Shire behind and this is what I always think of:

For a short way they followed the lane westwards. Then leaving it they turned left and took quietly to the fields again. They went in single file along hedgerows and the borders of coppices, and night fell dark about them. In their dark cloaks they were as invisible as if they all had magic rings. ..........After some time they crossed the Water, west of Hobbiton, by a narrow plank-bridge. The stream was there no more than a winding black ribbon, bordered with leaning alder-trees. A mile or two further south they hastily crossed the great road from the Brandywine Bridge; they were now in the Tookland, and bending southeastwards they made for the Green Hill Country. As they began to climb its first slopes they looked back and saw the lamps in Hobbiton far off twinkling in the gentle valley of the Water. Soon it disappeared in the folds of the darkened land, and was followed by Bywater beside its grey pool. When the light of the last farm was far behind, peeping among the trees, Frodo turned and waved a hand in farewell. 'I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again,' he said quietly.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Lalwendë, your mention of Vaughn Williams' music (are you familiar with his song "The Twilight People"? I sang it back in college, and it has always made me think of the Elves and Men of ME) made me think of something else about this chapter. Being a musician, I always paid a lot of attention to the various songs and poems (sang Donald Swann's "The Road Goes Ever On" cycle back in college, too, and wrote settings for just about every other song in the book quite some time ago). In the song "Upon the Hearth," I always found one part in particular quite curious:

But not yet weary are our feet,
Still round the corner we may meet
A sudden tree or standing stone
That none have seen but we alone.

The curious part, to me, is the "standing stone." Other than this mention in the song, the Three Farthing Stone is the only other mention of such a thing in the Shire, and that seems to be more of a mile marker than a megalith, such as those that are found in the "real" world. It just always struck me as an odd thing to find in a Hobbit walking song, since (given size and culture) they seem to me to be the least likely people to be raising such things. Then again, the reference may be to finding a surprise of something that was NOT raised by Hobbits, especially since Bilbo wrote the song. I can't imagine any proper adventure-adverse Hobbit wanting to sing about taking "the hidden paths that run toward the Moon and to the Sun."

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

The curious part, to me, is the "standing stone." Other than this mention in the song, the Three Farthing Stone is the only other mention of such a thing in the Shire, and that seems to be more of a mile marker than a megalith, such as those that are found in the "real" world. It just always struck me as an odd thing to find in a Hobbit walking song, since (given size and culture) they seem to me to be the least likely people to be raising such things. Then again, the reference may be to finding a surprise of something that was NOT raised by Hobbits, especially since Bilbo wrote the song. I can't imagine any proper adventure-adverse Hobbit wanting to sing about taking "the hidden paths that run toward the Moon and to the Sun."

It's yet another layer to the text which makes The Shire resonant of the real world. They have Barrows and megaliths just as we do, and they have stories about them just as we do - and what's even better is that while they can make some decent guesses as to who might have constructed the barrows, the megaliths remain enigmatic; our archaeologists can make some good guesses about the inhabitants of barrows but our megaliths remain a mystery.

As to Hobbits singing of adventure - maybe they do this instead of going on them? In much the same way I like reading travel books but I haven't got a passport because I'm not going to go anywhere? I am growing more like a Hobbit every day

I wonder if the Three Farthing Stone was put there by Hobbits or was there already? If it was already in situ then the Hobbits must have formed their administrative boundaries around it, which is pretty cool.

[Groin Redbeard]

I'll wait for Nogrod to post before I move on to the next chapter since we still have a disscussion going on about Three Is Company.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gildor is a very charming Elf. Well, I think he's funny and he indeed seems to have his way with words and has some wise thoughts. All the talk about fencing the world out always makes a shiver go down my spine.

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Is Gildor one of the Teleri? His attitude certainly doesn't strike me as being one of the more serious Noldor, he's much to silly and happy.

No, he's definitely one of the Noldor. If you recall, he introduces himself as Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod and an Exile. Also, the narrator and Frodo note a few times that Gildor's company are High Elves (mentioning the name of Elbereth and speaking Quenya and all that).

I think Gildor's merriness and even occasional silliness is rather refreshing after all the proud and serious Noldorin lords. (Don't get me wrong though, they are one of my favourites nevertheless. ) I think he actually illustrates rather well the two sides of how the Elves seem to mortals: the tra-lal-lal-ly side and the noble and serious side. Almost all other Elves in Tolkien's writing are just either of these types but Gildor is a healthy (and credibly written!) mixture of them both. I guess that's why I like him so much.

[Thinlómien]

This thread is obviously in need of a new topic, and I finished reading the next chapter yesterday, so let's get this going...

You won't get a detailed and thoughtful kick-off from me because I'm simply unable to make those , but I will say a few things about this chapter.

When this chapter was last discussed (here), many people seemed to talk about this as a cheerful and funny chapter. However, like I said back then, this has always been a rather scary chapter for me. Here's what I said about the topic when it was discussed in February:

Originally Posted by me on the CbC thread for this chapter

I mean, look at these quotes:

Every time I read them, they just make a chill run down my spine. They must be among the creepiest passages in the whole book.

Also, the episode of Merry The Black Rider is very scary. I remember when my father read LotR aloud to me and my little sister when we were about 6 and 4 years old and that passage was simply horror. I was sure the Black Riders had finally found them and I was so relieved when it turned out that the rider was Merry. The passage is very impressive - especially as when something is read aloud to you, you can't even accidentally see the next phrases that reveal the truth.

So, which one is this chapter for you? Scary or funny? Or maybe both? And why do you think so?

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere? (I've never heard it anywhere else, which of course doesn't mean anything since I'm not a native speaker... But I haven't heard the Finnish equivalent of it either.)

We also meet farmer Maggot in this chapter. He seems to be one of those characters everybody likes. I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't like him.

Speaking of him, his land is called Bamfurlong. I've never paid it any attention to it before, but now it strikes me as weird. It doesn't sound very Hobbitish and as a word, it doesn't make any sense to me. Does anyone know where the name comes from or what does it mean? As soon as I get home, I'm going to see how it's translated in the Finnish version...

Latsly, I've always liked the beginning of this chapter and the thoughtful dialogue. This time, I was especially touched by Sam's words:

"Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."

Quite beautifully said, isn't it?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I'm severely allergic to mushrooms, so I guess I'd fall into the "scared" camp.

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange. Perhaps he is a reflection of "country" versus "town" hobbits -- and if so, he may well be an indication that the true mettle of hobbits lies not with its citified gentry, but with its common farmers, who love the land so well, they will rise up to defend it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only chiming in with a short comment...

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Actually, I always found Farmer Maggot to be an interesting indication that not all hobbits are what many of the Big People think them to be. He defends his property, tells a Nazgul to get lost, and thinks that the rather more stuffy folk of Hobbiton are strange.

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

And as for this chapter being funny or scary, I gave some grounds on that in the thread quoted during the first reading - let me just say here that I do not find it that scary, since this is still the Shire, and it is friendly and... it is just like here now. (I said even about the chapter before that I would actually enjoy the night walk with the Hobbits, even with the Black Riders. It's great!)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I agree with everything you say, except for the last one - that is not an indication of anything special. He is just the same as the hobbits of Bag-End in this, it is simply the "regional xenophobia", or how to call that. Sure you know that from your country, wherever you live, too - I think it must be the same all over the world: hobbits from Hobbitton say (at the beginning of the book, in the pub I think - it is Gaffer if I recall correctly) that the Bucklanders are strange, and a hobbit from the east (Maggot) says that people of Hobbitton are strange (in which I find a kind of funny resonation, at least I always took it as an intentional writer's joke). Pretty normal even in our world.

Oh, certainly, you find regional prejudices, even within some cities. A very normal situation. But Maggot does seem, to me at least, a little more willing to do what Big Folk don't seem to think hobbits in general will do, that being stand up to protect himself and his land rather than run and hide and let someone else do it. Which, no doubt, is a Big People prejudice toward Hobbits, who feel a need to protect (or exploit) them because they think they're all afraid of the world. Maggot rather plainly isn't; he didn't need to be put into much of a pinch before he showed what was in him.

[alatar]

Okay, so I just want to show that I'm not crazy. Anyway, here are direct quotes from "Three is Company" that made me think that 'sniffing' was to be a big deal (and note the emphasis seen is from the original text - not added):

• From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road.

• 'I can't say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me;

• 'What about the smelling, sir?' said Sam.

• 'Your talk of sniffing riders with invisible noses has unsettled me.'

• 'Very well!' said Pippin. 'But don't forget the sniffing!'

• Frodo thought he heard the sound of snuffling.

We get more in 'A Short Cut to Mushrooms'. And after all of this, the explanation we learn is (to jump ahead to the chapter "A Knife in the Dark'):

Originally Posted by Strider on Weathertop

And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it.

Almost as anticlimatic as this post.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

In this chapter, we have the memorable saying "Short cuts make long delays." I'm wondering, is that originally invented by Tolkien, or has he picked it from somewhere? (I've never heard it anywhere else, which of course doesn't mean anything since I'm not a native speaker... But I haven't heard the Finnish equivalent of it either.)

In Swedish we have the saying genvägar är senvägar which pretty much has the same meaning as "Short cuts make long delays" with an even better ring to it - but you would know that, wouldn't you?

I'm going to check how it's translated into Swedish. Yes, it's "genvägar kan bli senvägar". I don't know if the good Prof has an interest in Swedish and Swedish sayings and picked it up from there or if he just made it up.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

:
So, which one is this chapter for you? Scary or funny? Or maybe both? And why do you think so?

Definitely a scary chapter with that signal the Nazgul sends out and let's not forget the climatic trip to the ferry with farmer Maggot.

We also meet farmer Maggot in this chapter. He seems to be one of those characters everybody likes. I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't like him.

Indeed, farmer Maggot is one of those characters that anyone can relate to no matter what country he/she may live in. He reminds me of a roughneck neighbor we used to have, he to kept ferocious dogs that everyone was afraid of, but he was still a capitol fellow once you got to know him.

[skip spence]

I sometimes wonder whether JRRT had a passion for mushrooms matching that of the Hobbits. I would say so or else he wouldn't have dedicated a whole chapter to this culinary treat. Whereas I can't read "Three Is Company" without yearning for a cross country-walk and I can't read "A Short-Cut To Mushroms" without desiring a heap of butter-fried mushrooms and perhaps a vintage Old Vineyards to wash it down with.

Mmmmmmmmm, Mushrooms. *drools*

[Groin Redbeard]

I'm afraid that I don't have much to say for this chapter other than it was a creative way of getting Merry and Pippin back with Frodo.

Here is another point where we see that Hobbit nature come out in our four heroes. It is almost startling how loyal they are to Frodo after what Pippin and Sam had gone through with the Black Riders and all, yet still braver of them to dare plan of going into the Old Forest (I have an analysis on that but I'll save it for the next chapter).

Besides that I'm afraid I don't have much to say, other than Tolkien writes one of the best baths songs I've ever heard in this chapter.