Ulmo and the Ring War

[Feliandreka]

First let me thank you all before going into another rant.

The Eagles protected Gondolin at the height of Morgoths power in that time. The Eagles held the Valar in reverence and owned Manwe as their lord. Again, it is clear that Manwe instructed the Eagles to protect Gondolin, a place practically next door to Angband, and so they did, very effectively. What were their resources? They had great intelligence and incredible eyesight. True, they probably had the help of many allies, all loyal to the will of Manwe. True, they definately had the assistance of Manwe, who had the help of Varda who could see through any darkness, or was it Manwe who could see well and Varda who could hear any call for help...anyway, you get my drift. But once the locaton of Gondolin was discovered there was nothing keeping Morgoths army from simply walking there. If anything surprises me about the fall of Gondolin it is that the city did not get better warning from the attack from the Eagles. Although not specifically written about perhaps Morgoth found some way to keep the advance secret...in addition to the festival that is, maybe the Eagles were invited. Ha Ha Ha. Ok...no laughing matter!

You all argue that the Eagles showed up at the right place at the right time. They were at the Battle at the Black gate where Aragorn lead a diversion to draw the Eye away from Frodo. No doubt the inner councils of the Wise, Gandalf, Aragorn, Eomer and other lords of men were not available to the Eagles. They were at the Battle of Five Armies but were they instructed to go there? Did they need to be instructed? Ok, the Eagles helped the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf escape from the Wargs and Goblins by carrying them away to their aeries. But if the Eagles had not already seen them during their flight from the tunnels of the Goblin complex, would they have not seen them when Gandalf started lighting off pine cones?

So the Eagles have a habit of being in the right place at the right time in the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit. So also was Thorondor in the Silmarilion. But the motivation of all Eagles in Tolkiens works appears to be to thwart the minions of Melkor/Sauron (or evil creatures in general) and assist the enemies of those minions. Can we call them allies of the Valar? Certainly. It is interesting to me to find this reference from the Encyclopedia of Arda

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/g/gwaihir.html

It shows that Gwaihir was the son, or at least, the descendant of Thorondor. I don't recall where it says Gwaihir was related to Thorondor in the works of Tolkien so forgive me. What is important is that an Eagle like Gwaihir was a spirit taken bird form after the manner of the Maiar--he was a Maiar or a descendant of one--and therfore was likely to be very old. (Originally some Maiar took the form of the elder children...some took the form of animals.) It also seems likely to me that the Eagles possessed their own information network, built chiefly upon their outstanding vision, they could see troop movements from a mile up just as they could see a playing card. Can anyone honestly say that these amazings creatures could not have know when a battle was brewing?

When Gandalf and party had been rescued in the Hobbit Gwaihir asked Gandalf what his mission was. Is that a question of a creature who has the speed dial to Manwe? And also someone pointed out that if Gwaihir had the guidance of the Valar then Gandalf would not have be trapped upon the pinnacle of Orthanc for so long while peril for the world drew ever closer.

Alright, I concede the unlikelihood that the Eagles came to the aid of Aragorn at the battle before the black gate. There is no relationship between Aragorn and the Eagles. But they did come for their own reasons to that battle and other battles. Whether they came on their own accord or they were guided by the Valar we may never know.

I said Tolkien's world was like a religion to some. the Eagles...a good example. In some matters where there simply is no evidence to support a theory one is able to make a leap of faith based upon other consistencies within the body of work. I will tell you what I believe. I believe the Eagles needed no instruction to be allied with any and all creatures who opposed the enemies of the Valar. The very nature of the Eagles, bred to serve Manwe out of love for Manwe, did not change from age to age. Their cause and purpose was clear even after the Valar changed the world and things began to diminish. While Gwaihir was likely a mere shadow of an Eagle King when compared to great Thorodor of old, he retained the intelligence to lead and govern his people in like manner. As was Gondolin the charge of Thorodor cannot we assume Gwaihir had similar motivations toward Middle Earth. Make no mistake, by the spirit within him I can see a connection to the Valar. But if that connection meant that he was receiving tip offs to times and places of great events or if Gwaihir was simply using his own prowess as a king to keep himself informed, we may never know.

There is no evidence to suggest either possibility. So like I said, believe what you will. I think the Eagles deserve more credit and should be considered one of the highest, most honorable races, they had the capabilities to know world events and act independently. They were not dumb animals directed by distant forces.

But how can I dispute the possibility that they were directed by Manwe? I just put out the claim that Ulmo knew about the whereabouts of the Great Ring and arranged the finding of it by Bilbo and Gandalf. I now agree with some of you that this is unlikely, that the Valar had withdrawn most of their influence. But at the end of the Hobbit, and forgive me for not being able to make a direct quote as I don't have it handy, after a description of happenings at the Lonely Mountain from Balin, Bilbo says something about the prophesies coming true after all. To that Gandalf asks Bilbo if he thinks all his adventures were arranged for his sole benifit. He then says that Bilbo is just a little person in a large world. To me that seals the mystery and invites open interpretation. It is all true, and up to the reader.

Thank you all,
Feliandreka

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

They were at the Battle of Five Armies but were they instructed to go there? Did they need to be instructed? Ok, the Eagles helped the Dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf escape from the Wargs and Goblins by carrying them away to their aeries. But if the Eagles had not already seen them during their flight from the tunnels of the Goblin complex, would they have not seen them when Gandalf started lighting off pine cones?

I am not sure if I understood the two last sentences - as far as I know, the Eagles noticed only the burning pine trees, that was the first time they noticed something happening, and later they saw that somebody's up there and they saved Gandalf. But they have not seen the Dwarves and Gandalf escaping from the underground.

But, anyway, to the main point. I believe the Eagles' intervention had nothing to do with the relationship to Gandalf, even less to the Dwarves (they didn't have any): it is stated in the Hobbit explicitely, and it has been already even quoted here, that the goblins were the Eagles' bitter enemies. And that is sufficient, and it goes well with the "task" of the Eagles: they were the breed brought into Middle-Earth by Manwë in order to guard and protect the others, and be in the battle against Morgoth and whatever he created. Battle of the Five Armies, despite its importance and impact which could have been seen only later (preservation of the Ring, the Kingdom Under the Mountain as a protection against the Easterlings...), was not as important event for the Valar or whatever providence might have guided the Eagles (if we decide it guided them in several other times) to intervene. In this case, and that has been already mentioned before, it was most probably solely the Eagles' own initiative. But I still doubt about the decisive Battle of Morannon.

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

It also seems likely to me that the Eagles possessed their own information network, built chiefly upon their outstanding vision, they could see troop movements from a mile up just as they could see a playing card. Can anyone honestly say that these amazings creatures could not have know when a battle was brewing?

You have to take into account, that battle was brewing everywhere at that time. In the Anduin Vales, in Mirkwood, also there was an attack on northern Rohan - all of this much closer to the Eagles' home than the Black Gate. Why did they arrive just there, and how did they know that they should go just there? Okay, even if they decided to intervene not close to their homes, but to the battles in the South (which by itself is illogical, but okay), then wouldn't it be logical to head for Minas Tirith, and not the Black Gate, where it wasn't even known if any army is going to march there! No, I will say with Gandalf: "There was something else at work."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Feliandreka

Alright, I concede the unlikelihood that the Eagles came to the aid of Aragorn at the battle before the black gate. There is no relationship between Aragorn and the Eagles. But they did come for their own reasons to that battle and other battles. Whether they came on their own accord or they were guided by the Valar we may never know.

My objection to their appearance at the Morannon is only on a literary level. The only other appearance they make in the entire trilogy is when Gandalf is rescued from Orthanc. Then, suddenly, they appear at the Battle of the Black Gates.

I'm not a published author, and certainly am I no J.R.R. Tolkien. But every creative writing class I ever took cites deus ex machina as anathema. The eagles at Morannon are reminiscent of the cavalry making its first appearance in a western film to help the besieged pioneers... at the very climax of the story.

I wish Tolkien had simply left them out of that scene.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

My objection to their appearance at the Morannon is only on a literary level. The only other appearance they make in the entire trilogy is when Gandalf is rescued from Orthanc. Then, suddenly, they appear at the Battle of the Black Gates.

I'm not a published author, and certainly am I no J.R.R. Tolkien. But every creative writing class I ever took cites deus ex machina as anathema. The eagles at Morannon are reminiscent of the cavalry making its first appearance in a western film to help the besieged pioneers... at the very climax of the story.

I wish Tolkien had simply left them out of that scene.

And when Gandalf is "rescued" from the peak of Zirakzigal and then carried to Lothlorien. It seems all of these involve something beyond the Eagles just patrolling the skies and randomly coming across Gandalf. Either the Eagles are hearing something directly from Manwe, or more likely, they communicate telepathically with Gandalf (Manwe's emissary in Middle Earth). In this regard, not perhaps a Deux ex Machina in the same sense that this term is usually used...

[Eönwë]

For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his
government; so that the elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all
the veins of the world.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, at least for the Sea of Núrnen, my personal belief is that this was a place where he really didn't have much, if any influence. Not only was it as close to Sauron as it could, but it was also an inland sea with seemingly no connection to the Belegaer. So no rivers, no flows connecting its waters to the Great Sea - it was probably a lake whose waters, from most part, evaporated and that was the only way the water got away from there.

But if Ulmo is the Lord of All waters, would he be able to control rain and such? Would the spirit of Ulmo run in all the actual veins of living beings? Would that give him absolute control?

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I have wondered if this is because of their aversion to something as inherently clean and pure as free-flowing water, or if it still contains traces of Ulmo's presence, which they might well have reason to fear.

Wouldn't the two be connected? Water is "unmarrable" (well, almost) because of Ulmo. Ulmo's spirit can live on in water without it actually having to "contain traces of his presence" as you put it.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

He was not afraid of water. Whether the water did have any effect on him is a completely different question (and in the end, it indeed had... ). He may still have felt a little dizzy or uncomfortable in the water, like somebody who has an allergy or something, but he was not afraid - for what reason in particular, we don't know. He may have been simply more rational person than the others

Considering that his main weapon is fear, you might have something there...

As for the eagles, I think that most of what they did they did themsleves, but I agree with Legate in that they probably got a little nudge from Manwe in things such as the Black Gate.