Gandalf The Superhero

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...then why could not Saruman do the same (after his fall)? Of course, it may be so that Radagast did not shapeshift at all. But as I say, the idea is just too persistent.

Well, Eomer says:

Originally Posted by TT; The Riders Of Rohan

It is ill dealing with such a foe: he is a wizard both cunning and dwimmer-crafty, having many guises.

Btw, I like your idea of Radagast in the shape of a squirrel gossiping and munching nuts with the other rodents of the forest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, it seems kind of natural to me. However, as to Éomer's words, "guises" may be just simply a disguise for an old man who goes to pick some wood to Fangorn, as we know it from the book. (Okay, maybe not exactly pick wood...) So not really any shapeshifting, just maybe some "spell-enhanced" change of clothes and such. Gandalf tells Gimli at Isengard that Saruman may choose to look like Gandalf in Gimli's eyes if it fits his purposes, however I believe this too doesn't refer to actual shapeshifting but to mere seeming, the same as his Voice - after all, he sure wouldn't seem the same to everyone's eyes, and it would be physically impossible to achieve that by shapeshifting.

[Thinlómien]

Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself into a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...


Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Please, stop talking about Radagast as a squirrel. It reminds me all too much of the Disney movie The Sword in the Stone where Merlin transforms himself to a squirrel and gets harrassed by a rather insistent female squirrel...

Hm. That is rather disturbing. Remember it's said that Radagast strayed from his true mission because he fell in love with the birds and beasts.

Is there really anything he's bad at?

Gandalf couldn't boil eggs. No matter how often he tried, they always seemed to get either too runny or too hard.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

Do you mean like a good Melkor (but a Maia)? Only wiser (Or is he? Depends what counts as wise. And you can't measure a Vala's wisdom).

[Groin Redbeard]

I think it was Gandalf who describes himself best, in the manner of a superhero, when he says this: "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyway, this thread did make me think. I can't answer the initial question, nor anything stemmed from it this far, but rather, I'm going to present another point the thread title reminds me of... Gandalf really is a superhero. He doesn't always defeat his foes easily or even win, but he seems to be rathe good in everything. Is there really anything he's bad at? Of course he's a maia and therefore very powerful, but he seems to be a jack-of-all-trades unlike the other maiar we meet, who are most often specialised in something and less good at other things.

Well, let's see. Obviously, even among the mortals (and we are now talking about Gandalf here, not Olórin, of course), there were better warriors than Gandalf, and probably (so is the impression I get) more knowledgeable men or Elves (in the sense: they would get better results at the university, or such, this is how I would illustrate it), but still, he was a good warrior, he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person... Obviously, he was also quite persuasive (although he didn't misuse it) and he had a good empathy with others. As it was already mentioned, however, I think he was not that self-assured. Already as Olórin, he was afraid of Sauron. But when he wasn't aware of that (when he didn't have time to think about that), like in some rushed or dangerous situations, he didn't have time to consciously think of being afraid, so he could work to the full of his potential. Or so I see it
Otherwise, I don't think that for example Gandalf was well-educated in, let's say, "natural sciencies" (besides being friends with Treebeard - lots of what he knew actually came from his own main strength, which was being friends with lots of people or creatures), and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things. And overall, what I said about the knowledge, I don't think Gandalf actually had that much information in his own head, for one of the "Wise". I think he may have just used his... general wisdom, kind of, to find out where to look for things he needed (Scroll of Isildur) or to add two and two, but he needed to learn about the two and two from elsewhere before he could use his wisdom and add them together, if you get my meaning.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Otherwise, I don't think that for example Gandalf was well-educated in, let's say, "natural sciencies" (besides being friends with Treebeard - lots of what he knew actually came from his own main strength, which was being friends with lots of people or creatures), and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things. And overall, what I said about the knowledge, I don't think Gandalf actually had that much information in his own head, for one of the "Wise". I think he may have just used his... general wisdom, kind of, to find out where to look for things he needed (Scroll of Isildur) or to add two and two, but he needed to learn about the two and two from elsewhere before he could use his wisdom and add them together, if you get my meaning.

But isn't that the problem with coming to Middle-Eart straight as an old man with the potential to be intelligent?

[Thinlómien]

Eönwë, I misread your sentence and I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything at the moment because I would have spluttered it over the computer screen... even though it even wasn't that funny.

Originally Posted by Legate

and I don't recall him being an efficient "outdoorsman" or such things

Well, I don't think it's ever said anywhere, but one could assume him to be rather good in such things since he travelled a lot (and never got lost)...

Originally Posted by Legate

As it was already mentioned, however, I think he was not that self-assured. Already as Olórin, he was afraid of Sauron.

Now, that is interesting. Of course he was afraid of Sauron, because he had the wits to be. I don't think he was not self-assured, more likely he was just being realistic. He knew he was less powerful than Sauron (if we think about the word "powerful" narrowly here) and that he had just one way of winning, and there ws only the fool's hope for its success...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, I don't think it's ever said anywhere, but one could assume him to be rather good in such things since he travelled a lot (and never got lost)...

But honestly the image of Gandalf tracking deers or foraging for food seems strange to me. It is definitely not the typical thing he would do. Most of the time, I can imagine him traveling the used roads whenever possible and usually having his horse and carrying supplies with him. After all, he was not Radagast: he traveled from people to people, and not to desolate places; and helped the nations of Middle-Earth, thus, he spent most of the time in "civilisation".

Now, that is interesting. Of course he was afraid of Sauron, because he had the wits to be. I don't think he was not self-assured, more likely he was just being realistic. He knew he was less powerful than Sauron (if we think about the word "powerful" narrowly here) and that he had just one way of winning, and there ws only the fool's hope for its success...

Hmm, not really sure. At least my feelings from that part of the "Council of Valar" (although of course it's just a feeling and thus not a real proof) were that Gandalf was afraid even though he was up to the task (because the Valar seemed to know, at least Varda, that he IS up to the task - it seemed to me the same as when Elrond or Galadriel were with Frodo: they also seemed to "know", or hope at least, in a quite big part, that Frodo would succeed, while he was afraid a lot). I don't think there was any rational calculation like "Sauron is more powerful than me, I am not going", but rather just "I am afraid I don't have enough strength" - not taking into account at all whether he does or does not really have it. I don't think Gandalf, resp. Olórin was realistic at this moment at all (and later in M-E in some moments also): he was only afraid, just as he says.