Ooh la la, Lúthien...

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lalaith;564990]well, yes, because it suited Tolkien's plotlines for Gondolin/Tuor better. I don't think it was due to any intrinsic difference between the characters...
Plus...wasn't Idril an even earlier character in the mythology than even Luthien? (I may be wrong on this)

We'll just have to agree to differ on this one Mith.

QUOTE]

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh come on you think that Luthien is as she is to suit the plot? Luthien is idealised as the perfect woman - passive other than as meets the needs of her man for whom she sacrifices everything. I just find this completely and irredeemably horrific.

Ummm...but the hotness factor supersedes all the feminist claptrap.

*The Dark Elf, realizing he has once again accidently spoken his mind out loud, quicky reverts to subterfuge*

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

[Mithalwen]

The first time I read it I couldn't believe that Aragorn could prefer her to Eowyn - after all "A woman should never learn to sew, and if she can she shouldn't admit to it.". Then I realised that Faramir is Mr Wonderful and was very glad.. you couldn't really call Arwen defiant (unless you are *gulp* referring to the films ) in which case I'd say petulant.

I don't ask for miracles just a bit of wit and spark - and that is the blondes - Idril, Galadriel, Eowyn - Erendis lacks style but not strength.

Actually it is a miracle that I like this stuff at all

[Tuor in Gondolin]

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

Well, I think you'd have to include Luthien taking on Morgoth
(via Beleriand Idol song contest) in Angband, and
how about Tar-Ancalime? (Now there's a proto-feminist,
and a scary date ).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, aside from Galadriel and Haleth (with a small mention of Lobelia Sackville-Baggins wielding her dreaded bumbershoot), there is a dearth of a strong female presence in Middle-earth. Melian never told Thingol to just shut the heck up (which would've happened in most marriages), Erendis is rather impetuous and spoiled, Miriel meekly acquiesces and surrenders her crown to Ar-Pharazon (and then just as meekly drowns afterward), Celebrian surrenders to melancholy after her 'rape' by the orcs, and even Arwen, save for her defiance of Elrond, merely follows the fairy tale ritual of giving it up to the enchanted frog who becomes Prince Charming.

If one is looking for feminist characters in Tolkien's work, only Galadriel and Haleth can be identified as the tough female corporate executives breaking through an arbitrary glass ceiling to achieve independence and renown on their own terms.

It bothered me that after Thingol died, Melian just went away weeping. She had the power to keep off evil from her realm, and besides, if you're a monarch aren't you supposed to protect your people? I suppose being dowager, she isn't. She left it in Dior's hands entirely. Had she stayed and endured her grief (which is pretty understandable, the loss of a darling husband), Doriath would stand longer, maybe as long as Gondolin. But then, Melian being such a "weak" character fits in with the whole plot for the fall of the kingdoms in Beleriand.

But about Erendis: it shocked me. (Well, I was a young and brought up with traditional Catholic teaching and values). The whole concept of men being half-elves, great and proud, and women but little playthings, "for their bodies' needs," or "if fair to adorn their table and hearth", "of their women we hear less, save that they wept when their men were slain."

Her advice to her daughter, "sink your roots into the rock and face the wind, though it blow away all your leaves," is it not a way of saying "you're a woman, but of a great heritage. You are bound to get gender discriminations, but then you gotta prove them wrong"?

Ancalime however is not the perfect feminist manifesto, though I think she is one of the strongest female characters of Tolkien. She did not refuse the scepter, she was clever, but no mention of Numenor gaining further glory--she even abandoned her father's policy after he died. The event at Emerie, "where even the sheep seemed to make fun of her" further gives the impression you can't be female and a very strong leader, or you'll be made fun of. And Ancalime still had to marry, because of the patriarchal laws. And when Gondor and Arnor were established, Elendil didn't really follow the "new law", did he?

Once in a class someone said that Eowyn can pass for a feminist character, she being able to kill the WK, and prior to that entrusted with the care of Edoras. But it was equally countered, she had the help of Merry, and if Aragorn didn't really refuse her she wouldn't have gone to Gondor seeking death (rather too emo-ey, isn't it?); she was chosen in Edoras simply because she was the last of the line of Eorl, and she wasn't even thought of before Hama (or whoever) suggested it. Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

The most freedom Tolkien's females have is the freedom to choose who they will love. From Melian, Luthien, Galadriel, Idril, Arwen, Eowyn, etc, except Ancalime who did not want it. Eowyn had to settle for "less", but still it was her choice. But even the freedom to choose their loves restricted them. You don't really hear of ugly females, only fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so. But even by the choice of their lovers were they, even the most willful, chained, in a matter of speaking.

[Lalaith]

Really thoughtful analysis Lindale. However...

fair ones who would be counted amongst the great because they married so-and-so

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

I have to agree with yourt analysis regarding Galadriel, Lalaith. She gave the cold shoulder to the greatest elf in the history of his own mind, Feanor, and picked Celeborn for her boy-toy due to his distinctive silver hair and his willingness to relocate to wherever she wanted to go. All kidding aside, when Celeborn and Galadriel have a discussion with the Fellowship in Lorien, isn't it plain to everyone who the 'real' power is in Lorien? It always struck me that Celeborn was given his army to command so he wouldn't lose face having to answer to his more powerful and cunning wife (after all, she has the Elven Ring, not he). It would be very embarrassing for poor old Celeborn to be 2nd in command of the army as well as the kingdom (I don't think Galadriel would have skipped a beat leading the army).

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Galadriel chose to leave Valinor for Middle Earth and was counted among the great entirely in her own right. That decision was nothing to do with who she loved, and her marriage to Celeborn seems almost incidental to her identity.

My bad. I guess I overgeneralized it again. Anyway, this is pretty much the same stuff I wrote for a term paper in a survey of European lit class around a year ago, and it didn't fare too well, mainly because I didn't read the course description properly: Survey of Continental European Literature.

About Galadriel, if I may add, she was Nerwen too, man-maiden. Like Pallas Athena of the ancient patriarchal Greeks, who was female in gender and appearance, but male in everything else, fatherless, a true warrior, embodiment of wisdom (which ironically females were supposed to have lesser than men). Galadriel did wield an elven ring, but the mightiest of the three was with Elrond. She is counted with Feanor as the greatest of the Noldor, but isn't the greatest elf of all.

"I passed the test, I will diminish, and go to the West, and remain Galadriel." Before my feminism classes I thought it a very good concept. But now I have my doubts.... patriarchy and such buzzing around in my head again.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Lindale;565279]
Furthermore, after the war, she accepted her fate as a woman: not even queen, but a healer. Eomer and Aragorn still had problems of renegade orcs even after Sauron, but Eowyn no longer rode with them.

QUOTE]

I agree with a lot of what you have said but I have to dispute this. Eowyn does not passively accept her fate. She chooses it. Eowyn is admirable in so many ways. She is fair and noble by birth but she is brave and high hearted and strong. And intelligent. Yes, Grima's words may have had an effect but she knows there is no point in staying at Edoras (yet somehow she is usually judged harder than the men who defy orders) and that is no doubt why Elfhelm colludes with her riding - and UT tells us that the Marshal was not averse to following his own wisdom. She sees only death and despair and Aragorn is the only available escape route. I do not seeing why choosing life and the love of a man who loves her for herself stops her being feminist. Healing isn't a specifically female occupation in ME - the greatest healers are men - Elrond and his sons and Aragorn and while there are women in the houses of healing it is male led.
I am pretty sure that Eowyn wasn't planning on emptying bedpans....

In elven culture healers abstained as much as possible from warfare and even hunting though in Gondorian (and indeed English) culture the healer-king is part of the tradition and the King would inevitably also be a warrior.

[Lindale]

Generally speaking, though, she thinks of warriors as "more" or "above" healers, at least until Faramir.

[Mithalwen]

Ah but the context has changed greatly. . Look at their conversations in "The Steward and the king". Faramir see them as equals and indeed he is at her mercy since he does not conceal his feelings. There is that crucial moment when they stand on the walls of the City and she says "I stand upon some dreadful brink , and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whetherthere is any light behind me I cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I am waiting for some stroke of doom.' and at that moment everything is still even their hearts for a moment. Only then is Eowyn able ot turn to light and life and love. The world has changed - Eowyn was a warrior becasue it was the only way of doing something that might make a difference. As she says later when she accepts Faramir "The Shadow has departed. I will be a shieldmaiden no longer....I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren" . It is Eowyn who changes in response to hope.

[Lush]

I love you guys.

Oh, and I've never really pondered the Edith-as-Luthien thing (even though I've heard and read about it) up until now, but does anyone know if she even had a say in putting the name "Luthien" on that tombstone?