The Nine Walkers

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...if Gandalf's staff was so potent, why then did he use the sword Glamdring the vast majority of the time, particularly after the enemy was well aware of his presence (which would be the only reason he would hide its power)?

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Even if Pippin's foolishly dropped stone did not actually awaken the Balrog, it alerted their enemies in Moria to their presence, and ultimately did not allow them to sneak through, unnoticed -- leaving behind a live and dangerous Balrog.

I never believed that Pippin's stone was the reason for this. There is a possibility that Gollum had kept enemies alert in Moria after skulking around in habited areas. Also, what is there to say that a Moria scout had not spotted the Company? Balin's attempt to retake Moria had awoken the armies of Moria, and going through unseen and unchallenged after that would be almost impossible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

You need to read other threads which discuss this topic to death, i.e. Gandalf vs The Witch King.

I don't need to read another thread, thanks.

The wizard's staff was symbolic of their order (as when Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff -- a token of Gandalf attaining white status), and used as a means of channeling their inherent power. There is no direct quotes to show that the staff had any innate power in and of itself (as a matter of fact, Gandalf would have most likely lost his original staff in his fall in Moria); hence, Gandalf is seen most often swinging around Glamdring. This is in line with Ibrin's opinion:

As for the wizards' staffs having some power, I don't believe we're ever really given any solid proof that they serve as anything but a channel for the wizards' own power. Breaking or obtaining the staff of another wizard would, I think, at most deprive them of a useful tool, at the least be a merely symbolic gesture. If it had innate power, I suspect we would've heard Gandalf warning Pippin not to EVER touch his staff.

[Gordis]

I like your post, Ibrîn! Good work.

You proved that Aragorn was not intending to go to Mordor initially, neither was Boromir.
Gimli indeed seemed set to stick to Frodo and the Ring - but that doesn't mean that Gandalf and Elrond were of the like mind. Dwarves were not reknown for stealth, but they had a bad reputation for their greed when it comes to jewelry. I don't think Gimli would have been trusted to accompany the hobbits to Mordor without other Big People to keep him in line.

Gandalf indeed seemed to foresee his own end and thus made no plans beyond going to Lorien.

And I wholly agree with Morthoron and Ibrin about wizards staffs.

[Alfirin]

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object (a bit like Terry Prachetts minor character of Unlucky Charlie, the poor scarecrow whose been cursed so often as part of the witch trials that he now has developed what borders on a life of his own (see the ettique secion of Nanny Ogg's Cookbook for futher information). If a wizards staff had no power in and of itself, then Gandalf's destuction of Saruman's would have been meaningless; saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.
Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object (a bit like Terry Prachetts minor character of Unlucky Charlie, the poor scarecrow whose been cursed so often as part of the witch trials that he now has developed what borders on a life of his own (see the ettique secion of Nanny Ogg's Cookbook for futher information). If a wizards staff had no power in and of itself, then Gandalf's destuction of Saruman's would have been meaningless; saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.
Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

I would dread to think that Gandalf would be a useless old man without his staff though.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I would actually disagree on the issue of wizards staffs being merely conduits of the wizards power; and nothing more. I think that a wizards staff probably does have a power beyond the wizard holding it, either inherent in itself or residual for the wizard's use of it; that if you throw enough magic at an object (or in this case run enough through it) eventually some of it begins to "stick" and stay in the object....

saruman could have simply grabbed another stick of wood (Orthanc proably had a good pile of sticks to be used as firewood) or at least cut a new one (or had Grima cut him a new one) once he was let out (he proably wouldn't want to do so in Fangorn itslef (given how Ents react when you damage trees) but I'm sure there were other trees along the route he could have cut a new staff from. Moreover if the staffs had no power out of the wizards hands then way would aquiring all of them (i.e. "the rods of the five wizards) be a desirable goal?) I'm not saying that anyone who took a wizard's staff would be able to use magic, but the staff is probably, in a certain sense a part of the wizard and a wizard whose staff was destroyed or lost would find it diffcult, if not impossible to replace.

Speaking of replacing staffs I do agree that the staff gandalf carried into Moria was proably lost or destroyed in his battle with the Balrog. Indeed the penultimate line of Bilbo's tribute poem does say "his staff was broken on the stone" (though this may of course be only hobbit poetic imagery) when Gandalf was given his new life and his new flesh he presuably was given a new staff, more powerful than his old, as he now was.

The complete sentence Saruman says is important to put his meaning in context:

"Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dûr itself, I suppose; and the crowns of seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now."

The key, the crowns and the rods are symbols of power, not a power in and of themselves. They represent dominion in one form or another. To have the key to Barad-dur means you have defeated Sauron and command his tower, to have the crowns of seven kings means you control each kingdom, and to have the five rods indicates you are the head of the order of Istari (as Saruman was). Saruman was saying Gandalf had gotten too big for his britches (if wizards actually had britches). When Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff, he was in essence stripping him of his station, as one would taking the crown off of a king.

As far as innate power residing in the staffs, that can only be conjecture, as no where is it stated the staffs held residual power (that I can recall anyway). Consider, if you will, that Gandalf defeated the Balrog after he broke his staff on the bridge in Moria (the broken staff is mentioned in the text). So, the most momentous battle Gandalf encountered was with a sword, not a staff.

Could the staff concentrate a wizard's power more readily, and thus be useful in directing a wizard's inherent Maiaric essence? That's a different discussion altogether. We know that Gandalf cast light in the darkness of Moria using the staff, but then again he threw burning pinecones down on the wargs and the staff was not used (he wasn't batting pinecones at the wargs). Perhaps, like a divining rod, it focused power and acted as an extension of the wizard. We unfortuantely do not know where Gandalf's 'white' staff was carved, but since his white robes came from Galadriel in Lorien, then it's logical it came from her (made of mallorn?).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

The only strong indication we have that the staff is a very useful implement for the Istari is Gandalf's insistence on keeping it when he goes to the Golden Hall in Edoras -- and yet, he doesn't really use it, not even as a conduit for light as he did before his death; indeed, the light seems to come more from him than his staff:

He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.

And as the story progresses, we see less and less of the staff. Contrary to what was shown in the movies, in the rescue of Faramir, the light that drives off the Nazgul comes from Gandalf's hand, not his staff. When he confronts Denethor in the Tombs, "his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place," and he merely lifts up his hand to send Denethor's sword flying; he doesn't even appear to have his staff with him. When confronting the Mouth of Sauron, "He cast aside his cloak and a white light shone forth like a sword in that black place." Less and less do we hear of him using his staff as even a conduit for power. If the staff is indeed an implement for directing a wizard's power, then it could well be that Gandalf the Grey's staff shattered when he broke the bridge because of the amount of power he had to direct to achieve his aim -- rather like power lines that get burned and slagged when too much energy surges through them. Gandalf the White may be employing power that would burn mere wood to cinders.

On the way home, when the company encounters Saruman in the wild, he is described as leaning on a staff, but this would appear to be no more than a stick, because he is never seen using it as anything more than a prop. If there is indeed a unique usefulness to the wizards' staffs as a conduit for their power as Maiar, it may be because they bear the blessing of the Valar, who sent them as their messengers. Without such a blessing, Saruman couldn't simply make another for himself, just as he could not imitate the forging of a ring of power without giving up a part of his own native strength, already limited by his incarnation in a real body. It may also explain why Gandalf never uses his second staff in the same way as he used his first. Speculation, of course, but not unreasonable, I think.

And this seems to be wandering away from the original topic...