The Nine Walkers

[Eönwë]

Well, there's obviously Sam and Frodo. Without them there is no fellowship. But other than that I'll give it a go:

First of all, you can't replace Gandalf. More powerful than an elf lord, and much more easily hidden. And I don't know what some of you think, but Gandalf would totally "pwn" (but that's 7th age speak, and not commonly used at that, so I don't thibk he'd use that particular word himself) the Witch King. But that's a discussion for another day (But let's just say this: He's a match for a Balrog. And the WK is- or was- a man).

Aragorn's fate is tied to this so he definately had to go.

Legolas could have been replaced but he helped them a lot (especially in Lorien- but I suppose Gandalf and Aragorn could have done that anyway. But it wouldn't have been as easy). And without him, we wouldn't have that acrobatic, sliding (on shields or Oliphaunt trunks) horse-jumping-onto elf of the movies, and we wouldn't be able to make fun of the "fangurls".

Gimli is important because if Gloin and Bilbo couldn't be in this together, then they need a representative/heir/descendant. After all, if it wasn't for the dwarves, Bilbo wouldn't have found the ring, so they need a dwarf to lose/get rid of it again.

Well, we all know that Boromir might have been better replaced by Faramir, but that is also another discussion. But the fellowship wouldn't have split up so easily (In a good way) if he hadn't died, Faramir wouldn't have found Frodo later on (instead it would have beeen Boromir, who would have taken it). The sight of Gondorian lord would also have probably intimidated the Rohirrim, as they were already on slightly unfriendly terms (If I remember correctly), and Gondor were the rulers.

Now, about the hobbits. Earlier on, it might have been better for the fellowship to replace Merry and Pippin with great warriors. But in the battle where Boromir was killed, would the Uruks have spared to great elf-lords. Something tells me they would much rather kill them, and delight in doing so. Then there would be no-one to cause the Ents to go to war. Elfs would indoubtedly be better at talking to trees, bu would they have survived? Also, the Merry and Pippin would would have probably been killed, or at least not been in the right mind to head a rebellion. The Thain would just have been another boring person as before, even as a Took, he would not be so inflamed to fight and wouldn't have been experienced enough. The Shire may well have fallen if not for those certain hobbits going on the Quest.

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And anyway, elf lords might be good warriors, but they are hard to disguise (sounds like something they would in LOTR, but in better and more old and/or formal language)

If elf lords are to be seen as vulnerable due to their power which the enemy could perhaps detect more easily (though this is not proven), what then can be said of the presence of Gandalf in Mordor (as was the original plan), and the power of the Ring when Frodo entered Mordor? Sauron, for instance, did not detect the power of the Ring until Frodo put in on in Mount Doom. I am sure elves may wear cloaks to help conceal their power to a degree as with Gandalf, such as the cloaks of Loth Lorien.

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Also there was the estrangement with even the Edain, and that while Gandalf was still accepted as a "wizard" in the guise of an old man, an immortal high elf would not have mixed well among the Rohirrim or even the Gondorins. Also, the movement of such a personage would have been easily marked by spies of the enemy. Recall Gandalf's regret at revealing his power in the Redhorn Pass, or that after his return he still used his grey rags to conceal his new strength and light. Glorfindel would have stood out -- shown or shined -- wherever he went, and little could have counteracted his nature.

Three final points: (1) An overriding strategy was to occupy the Enemy's gaze, and Elrond's and Glorfindel's staying in the North would have kept some part of Sauron's attention directed that way. He would have still viewed them as a threat and a focus of his Malice, even as Elrond knew their role and powers to be passive and no longer meant to project power in an aggressive sense. Consider Varya's attributes. Their only true contribution to the cause was Sauron's fear of them.

(2) Elrond may not have wanted himself or any of his people to be tested by prolonged exposure to the Ring. They were still at heart proud and powerful High Elves, who probably nurtured some some sense of how they thought things should be. Gandalf and Aragorn had already passed the test, and in fact, possessed simpler, purer types of nobility and strength, and they appreciated the world of Men. The others of the Nine walkers were generally less complicated and unaffected.

(3) More Elves would have meant fewer Hobbits, which of course, could serve as decoys, even sacrificial ones, but also could step in as substitute ringbearers, if necessary. Unexpectedly, they also played the role of non-intimidating emissaries among Ents and Men.

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation.

Is it just me, or are you a teacher. You really sound like one here.

Originally Posted by Mansun

If elf lords are to be seen as vulnerable due to their power which the enemy could perhaps detect more easily (though this is not proven), what then can be said of the presence of Gandalf in Mordor (as was the original plan), and the power of the Ring when Frodo entered Mordor? Sauron, for instance, did not detect the power of the Ring until Frodo put in on in Mount Doom. I am sure elves may wear cloaks to help conceal their power to a degree as with Gandalf, such as the cloaks of Loth Lorien.

But I'm sure Gandalf can (jokes aside) "cloak" his power.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Essentially off topic, but...perhaps someone should start a thread
on an above observation
====================
Boromir replaced with Faramir
====================

It's one of those questions which I've thought of
but not really pursued but is potentially interesting,
as is Aragorn's musing on who he would have had
accompany Frodo into Mordor. The latter scenario
would obviously have required JRRT giving an alternate
Gondor siege relief, but I believe Aragorn says he would
have taken Gimli and himself---interesting. Keep the quest
as small as possible, and a dwarf could carry Frodo
easily-given their strength and endurance.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Essentially off topic, but...perhaps someone should start a thread
on an above observation
====================
Boromir replaced with Faramir
====================

I think there already is one (or more)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Man-of-the-Wold

An unspoken undercurrent is that Elrond and the other remnants of the Eldar had done their part over the previous thousands of years and had other concerns. They in effect did not live in the present, even if not actually in the past. Rivendell was a very special and powerful place, which had been pivotal in the Ring's coming into the hands of persons least capable of being corrupted by it or attracting attention, and in assisting and protecting those Ringbearers. It was not their part to push the envelope of destiny and fortune.

I think it is telling that Legolas represented Elves, and though of at least partially Sindarin heritage, he was indeed more representative of those East/Wood-elves (with some Nandor-Sindar influence) who still played a significant role in the more everyday affairs of the N.W. of Middle-Earth in terms of numbers and at least continuing culture.

Elrond may have been reluctant to insert himself or Imladris into what had become a world of mortals. Perhaps, they might have played a small role along with Rangers, who stayed behind, in terms of containing orkish threats out of the Misty Mountain or of aiding Lothlorien or the Beornings.

Excellent points, MotW, and very pertinent to the subject. As an additional perspective on Elrond, there have been lengthy discussions in the past here (and elsewhere) regarding elvish healers not participating in battle due to warriors' extravagant use of their hroa (body) at the expense of their fea (spirit) -- the fea of a healer being integral in the healing of others. Points have been made that Elrond eschewed battle after the Last Alliance of Elves and Men to devote himself totally to loremastery and became the greatest healer of the 3rd Age.

In addition, although Elrond would never have been a member of the Fellowship (anymore than Galadriel or Celeborn would), he gave permission for his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, to join Aragorn for the climactic battles of the War of the Ring. If you consider what Elrond stood to lose (the possible deaths of one or both of his sons in battle, and the irrevocable sundering of Arwen if Aragorn became king), then I believe it is safe to say that Elrond certainly 'paid his dues' as a father and leader in the War of the Ring.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It is that in the Legendarium, the elves have had their chance. They were weighed in the balance and found wanting and now are diminishing. The important aspect of the Third Age is how the focus shifts from the first born to the next born, men. Hence, Man-of-the-Wold's choice of title for his post. A fellowship comprised in the majority by men--and hobbits are men--even one that breaks-- provides for this shift. It is the chronological development of the coming of men that makes this fellowship rather than an elven fellowship meaningful. Furthermore, Elves would have made the alliance between Rohan and Gondor less significant and less strategic. The elves, after all, failed to destroy the Ring in the past. Why would they necessarily be more successful this time?

Originally Posted by Mansun

This is a good response which shows deep understanding and organisation. However, the lore and power of Elrond was sorely needed in Minas Tirith at the uttermost end of need prior to the siege of Gondor. His coming would have renewed hope to Gondor. We may have even seen an army of elves or high elves follow him to Gondor at the eleventh hour, as in the Two Towers film in Helm's Deep.

The Elves already had their part to play in the War of the Ring (the forces of Thranduil and Celeborn were in a desperate fight against Sauron's eastern legions), and I feel with a degree of certainty that the Noldorin enclave in Rivendell had diminished population-wise to the point where open battle was no longer an option, and sending an 'army' anywhere was not possible, as there were perhaps sufficient enough numbers to man (or elf) the walls of Imladris in case of a final, desperate siege, but that's about it.

The Noldorin Elves had been decimated over the previous two ages of continuous wars against Morgoth, then Sauron. Eregion was sacked and many there had been massacred, and then came the Last Alliance when Gil-Galad, the last Noldorin High King, and many of his retinue fell. In striking parallel to the Dunedain, the Noldor did not crown a king after Gil-Galad's fall (much like the Dunedain had only chieftains after Arvedui's death). The most logical reason is there were just not enough Noldor left to bother with such titles. Add to that the number of Noldor who were yearly departing for the Undying Lands, and there you have it: it is significant that Elrond was known as the Master of the Last Homely House, and not the High King of a vast army of Noldor, ready to march on an embattled Gondor after taking a side-trip to Helm's Deep to crush Saruman's forces.

In any event, as we can see in hindsight, sending a Fellowship of primarily Elves (or primarily Dunedain, for that matter) would have failed miserably. The Hobbits -- unobtrusive, loyal, and yes, simple -- were the key factor in the destruction of the Ring. Neither the otherwordly power of Glorfindel nor a valorous host of Noldor could have gotten into Mordor in the roundabout and surreptitious manner in which the Hobbits did, nor would there be much of a possibility of a high-born Noldor befriending a creature like Gollum, who proved to be the only guide capable of leading them through the marshes, through the Vale of Morgul and up into the passes of Cirith Ungol. The correct path was not one in which gleaming Elves hacked their way through thousands upon thousands of Orc to get to Mount Doom. It was better that Sauron's eye was forever glaring at Gondor, fixated in delusional malice. Really, it was all smoke and mirrors: a few accidents, several strokes of good luck, a bit of strategy and bunch of subterfuge, and Sauron, the arch-deceiver, was hornswoggled in the end.

Tolkien never refers to the path Gandalf planned on actually taking, and for good reason. It is likely that even he could not do what two Hobbits and a misshapen, addled Stoor managed. That is where Gandalf's prescience comes in. His foresight in allowing the four Hobbits to join the Fellowship was the linchpin of the group's success.