Manwë stumbles

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, simply put, doesn't it just make the "music" more interesting, and "rebound even more to [his] glory"? But I'm just paraphrasing here.

Oh, absolutely, although I'd be more inclined to say the glory rebounds to Tolkien rather than Eru.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think it's entirely possible that Eru DID know, but wanted to watch it play out, regardless of the knowing. To me (being a musician and composer), it's rather like knowing all the notes of a particular score, and how it is to be played, versus listening to an actual performance. I know (all too sadly ) that there is a huge difference between a mechanical reproduction of the sound (as made with a synthesizer or computer), and the sound as it is made by living performers. The notes will still be the same, the dynamics and tempi the same -- but a live performer gives subtle nuances of interpretation that a machine will not. Hearing someone else perform one of my works is always a surprise to me, sometimes a good surprise, sometimes a bad one. But good or bad, the performance intrigues me, even though I know the composition quite well indeed, and often, I learn from it, or am inspired to some new idea by it. Perhaps Eru Himself "learned" from watching Creation in action rather than in thought, or wanted to draw some new inspiration from observation.

An apt analogy, nicely put, and without any qualms when limited to the musical analogy.

Yet what does it mean for a god to allow and accept bloodshed and battle for his own creative amusement and inspiration? Are elves and men and hobbits and dwarves but the playthings in Eru's sandbox? And does Manwe et al acquiesce to this?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I can tell you from my own limited experience that watching one's creation be interpreted and altered by others is not always an amusing or inspiring occupation. Frequently, it can be quite painful. But the pain doesn't stop the desire to create, nor does it usually make one regret having done so -- though it might prompt one to haul out the eraser and pen to perform extensive edits.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Well, I can tell you from my own limited experience that watching one's creation be interpreted and altered by others is not always an amusing or inspiring occupation. Frequently, it can be quite painful. But the pain doesn't stop the desire to create, nor does it usually make one regret having done so -- though it might prompt one to haul out the eraser and pen to perform extensive edits.

I see you can appreciate Morthoron's point then:

Originally Posted by Morth

Melkor wasn't really bad at first, he just couldn't harmonize. He had the misfortune of being in a celestial choir with a voice like Bob Dylan

[alatar]

Thanks for all of the responses.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet what does it mean for a god to allow and accept bloodshed and battle for his own creative amusement and inspiration? Are elves and men and hobbits and dwarves but the playthings in Eru's sandbox? And does Manwe et al acquiesce to this?

When Aule makes the dwarves, they are simply automatons - wind-up dolls - that can do nothing not programmed into them by their creator. So much so that, if Aule, intending to the destroy them, ordered them to form a queue and, as each approached its creator, was literally hammered into the ground, each subsequent dwarf would step and submit to being destroyed, not even thinking of not obeying.

Eru changed this, breathing life into Aule's creations, who shirked when Aule thought to destroy them.

So what of Manwe? Does he have the same spark within, a flame that, like the dwarves, would make him flinch when Eru calls? Why would men, elves, etc have the notion to flee - to disobey the creator - and not Manwe?

I guess all that I'm looking for is a moment of doubt to spring forth from Manwe. One little moment to show that he's not some machine.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Eru changed this, breathing life into Aule's creations, who shirked when Aule thought to destroy them.

So what of Manwe? Does he have the same spark within, a flame that, like the dwarves, would make him flinch when Eru calls? Why would men, elves, etc have the notion to flee - to disobey the creator - and not Manwe?

I guess all that I'm looking for is a moment of doubt to spring forth from Manwe. One little moment to show that he's not some machine.

Because Manwe is dedicated to his mission does not mean he lacks a spark. Society somehow eschews the thought of consistently adhering to goodness but accepts the fundamental presence of evil, or the ease of corruptiveness; therefore, we can comprehend Morgoth's descent into evil more easily than Manwe's staying the course and following Eru's vision, because it is far more glamorous and interesting (as a simple example, in the movie Gone With the Wind, most folks remember Vivian Leigh's Scarlett O'Hara, but tend to forget Olivia DeHavilland's Melanie Hamilton). For every Mother Theresa there are thousands who would spit a baby on a bayonet.

But Manwe was certainly no machine. Consider the invasion of Ar-Pharazon and the Numenoreans. Was it out of cowardice that he surrendered his station to Eru's justice? I would say that is far-fetched. Did Manwe lack the military might to quash Ar-Pharazon? I would say that is absurd as well, seeing as he could have easily sent Eonwe and the armies that crushed Morgoth in the War of Wrath to do the same against the Numenoreans. Why then did he beg Eru's favor in this instance? Perhaps because he was not dealing with Morgoth and his cast of monstrosities, rather, it was the race of men, Children of Illuvtar, and he felt it was not in his power (or duty, if you will) to destroy men. That alone was for Eru to handle (as was the case of the Noldor, who, after the kin-slayings, escaped divine justice, or Eonwe letting Maedhros and Maglor escape after they stole the Silmarils and committed murder).

We find Manwe doubting about pressing issues, but we never see him doubt the master plan. And, after all, we are not speaking of a frail human's battered conscience, but a divinity who has seen more of the Creator's vision than any other Ainur; therefore, to psychoanalyze Manwe is rather like putting the Archangel Michael on the therapist's couch and asking him why he didn't follow Lucifer in his rebellion in Paradise Lost.

[Morthoron]

As a follow-up to my post, its interesting the ethical bases by which the Valar operate. Obviously, they are not necessarily motivated in the same moral sense the way we mortals are. My thought was sparked by seeing a quote by Mandos in the upper right of the BD title header. In reference to Feanor's saying, "...if I must break them [the Silmarils], I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain, first of all Eldar of Aman", and Mandos replied cryptically, "Not the first", intimating a prescience about clandestine activity happening elsewhere in the realm. Mandos knew, but did nothing to stop it, nor ameliorate a situation which was only to get worse. Yet we accept this in Mandos, because of the manner in which he operates (like the Greek Fates or the Norse Verdandi, Skuld and Urd) which is beyond morality and deals with doom and fate.

Of course, even an enigma like Mandos has his odd moments. He became a quivering mass of jelly after Luthien sang to him, "and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was, nor has been since." Boy, I bet he was the target of ribbing and jokes afterwards in the Valar's private club. We also know that Tulkas and Orome have bad tempers, that Tulkas liked to wrestle (which for some reason always cracks me up), and Nienna cries all the time (which must make her a laugh riot at parties). What a strange lot the Valar were.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Eh... But Mandos granted Luthien's wish because he was so immensely touched... Or was it because it was "doom"?

"Boss, the parole's been cast... Ol' dusty seemed to have a weakness for the high pitches... Maybe you should pick up soprano." - Sauron's Letter to Morgoth during First Chaining