A question about class in Middle Earth

[Nerwen]

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

[Lalaith]

Yes, I agree - for the Rohirrim to look down on the Dunlendings, or for the Elves to look down on Men, has nothing to do with class and everything to do with cultural/racial prejudices...
Hobbit society seems to me to be a slightly more egalitarian version of the class systems of early 20th century rural England.

Elrond and his family, and Galadriel and her family, were presumably considered 'grander' than the ordinary elves who populated Rivendell and Lorien. I also get the feeling that the Calaquendi looked down on the Moriquendi and that the folk of Thranduil were a bit more rustic and less grand than the Galadhrim or the cosmopolitans of Rivendell.

Gondorian society was more class-ridden, I feel, than that of Rohan. The Anglo-Saxons were much more egalitarian than the Normans that conquered them, and I think there is a correlation.

Tolkien himself was certainly not an aristocrat. His father was a bank manager (middle-middle) and his grandparents were shopkeepers (lower-middle).
Tolkien himself though, as an academic, would qualify as upper-middle, so there's a bit of British social mobility for you...

(PS - Remains of the Day was actually written by a Japanese author, Kazuo Ishiguro....and if you want really complex class systems, all you have to do is read To Kill a Mockingbird....small town Alabama....)

[Bêthberry]

While I agree that usually "class structure" is a sociological construct to suggest divisions within a society--divisions determined by economic, political, and/or cultural traits--there is also the use of "class" to mean high social rank or style. "She's a classy lady." "First class tickets" In this sense, LotR is loaded with "class" attributes. As a mythology of ancient times, it follows the pattern of focussing upon the aristocracy--Patrician as both Morthoron and I said earlier--so that we lack much evidence about the huddled masses of Gondor, Rohan, the dwarven kingdoms. (Actually, I have a sense that dwarven culture is far less class-ridden--as in having fewer social divides--than Gondorian or hobbit culture.)

Both meanings can be argued in the story.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

. (Actually, I have a sense that dwarven culture is far less class-ridden--as in having fewer social divides--than Gondorian or hobbit culture.)

Love the way that all the non-Brits are arguing about class but agreeing that we are obsessed about it . I just think that the great social mobility of the last century provided a rich seam for drama and humour which many writers and film makers have exploited. And the social mobility is reflected in LOTR particularly of Tolkien's works. Think of Faramir talking about Gondor and Rohan and Sam rising to be Mayor and his daughter marrying the Thain's son.

The Shire was changing just as England was. It is a very different place to when (at about the time of Tolkien's birth) that one of my great grandmothers was disowned by her family for marrying into trade and caused scandal by riding a bicycle. The former seems just as ludicrous as the latter now.

Another great-grandmother was an illiterate Irish immigrant so I owe my existance to a degree of social mobility! Certainly my parents had very different backgrounds - my father's feet are crumpled because his widowed mother couldn't afford shoes for him as soon as he needed them, but at least at the time it was possible for a poor boy with a good brain to get an education and a scholarship to university which had a ripple effect throughout the rest of his family.

If there are three classes in Britain now I would say they are those who don't work, those who work and those who don't need to work. The type of work people do is rather more significant these days than accent or the words you use for rooms or meals. And I have to say that I notice plenty of "class" distinction in American programmes and books - anything set in New York seems chocabloc with it for starters, let alone Desperate Housewives, Shark, The Riches, all those films where the girl from the trailer park fights it out with the rich girl to be Prom queen or whatever... And the most class conscious film I ever saw was French (Priez pour Nous) but heigh ho... you keep you national stereotypes and we'll keep ours

To get back to Tolkien, there is a clear hierachy between the kindred of the Elves, and with Men there is an even more refined hierachy - the purer Numenoreans being a cut above even within the superior realm of Gondor. With the Dwarves the line of Durin is top and even the Orcs make distinctions from the Uruk-hai down to the snufflers. It is clearly a very hierachical world from the Valar down... but that is hardly suprising for a mythology which concern generally the great and the good (and the great at being bad), the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry".

So having had the first version of this lost in a computer crash,I shall post and wait for the gauntlet... (fish knives at dawn no doubt)....

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Love the way that all the non-Brits are arguing about class but agreeing that we are obsessed about it

Ah, there's that legendary British understatement we've all come to know and love.

Actually, if you look carefully I believe only one poster linked Brits exclusively to class obsession (and everyone else disagreed to such exclusivity, be they Euros or Yanks); but I think that the American version of the class divide was more racial in tenor, or due to the point of national origin. My ancestors being Italian and Irish were certainly met with scorn by those WASP's (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) who could recall their descent in bardic cadence from the first settlers off the Mayflower or the veterans of the Revolutionary War. I have a Help Wanted sign dated to the 1850's that carries the disclaimer: No Irish Need Apply.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I just think that the great social mobility of the last century provided a rich seam for drama and humour which many writers and film makers have exploited. And the social mobility is reflected in LOTR particularly of Tolkien's works. Think of Faramir talking about Gondor and Rohan and Sam rising to be Mayor and his daughter marrying the Thain's son.

Yes, Samwise, the gardener who made good; of course, it didin't hurt that he was a war hero (when the Hobbits finally learned there was indeed a war and other civilizations existing beyond their borders), and that his best friends were young scions of the 'great houses' of the Shire, and who eventually became Thain Peregrin and Meriadoc, Master of Buckland (not to mention having King Elessar's ear and a daughter serving as the Queen's Maid of Honor). Just your average Joe fortunate enough not to be the apprentice to Ted Sandyman's dear ol' dad.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

To get back to Tolkien, there is a clear hierachy between the kindred of the Elves, and with Men there is an even more refined hierachy - the purer Numenoreans being a cut above even within the superior realm of Gondor. With the Dwarves the line of Durin is top and even the Orcs make distinctions from the Uruk-hai down to the snufflers. It is clearly a very hierachical world from the Valar down... but that is hardly suprising for a mythology which concern generally the great and the good (and the great at being bad), the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry".

But how many epics, from Homer's Iliad to Malory's Mort d'Arthur to Tolstoy's War and Peace to Tolkien's LotR dealt with anyone but the high and mighty (or at least comfortably well off)? Grunts are wiped out at Gallipoli or the Somme or the day after Christmas in All's Quiet on the Western Front. They smell horrid, can't articulate well and come home to find disenchantment, unemployment and life on the dole. That's John Steinbeck or Hemingway, not Tolkien.

I think you're right about the Gondorion penchant to trace their lineage to Numenor (and the bluer the blood, the better), and I agree with your views on hierarchical stratification up to a point; however, the original question concerned a 'class divide' among different races, and although elements of that occurred in previous ages (as I mentioned previously, the vassalage of the Edain to the Noldor), my point was that such a divide from a racial standpoint is not readily discernible in the 3rd Age. There was far too much separation (or self-imposed segregation, if you prefer) for such a statement to be plausible.

[Mithalwen]

But Morthoron I never mentioned exclusivity And I did wonder if the Cabots were still only talking to God

I did state that mythology did tend to concern the great and the good so I am not sure why you are picking me up on that... :S

Yes it always helps to have friends in high places but in some cultures changing your station in life is just not possible. It was possible in the Shire.

However I certainly agree that there was too much separation for a racial class divide at the end of the third age. Even the men of Gondor have little contact with the Elves, the Rohirrim regard them with suspicion tinged with fear and hostility. Only the rangers have much to do with them and they are regarded as vagabonds by the "respectable" folk of Bree.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I did state that mythology did tend to concern the great and the good so I am not sure why you are picking me up on that... :S

Actually, I wasn't picking on you, I was expanding on your comment regarding "the powers of the world not the "poor ****** infantry"; however, I sometimes sound argumentative even when being agreeable. It's that whole curmudgeon thing I've developed as I get older and more irascible.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I have a Help Wanted sign dated to the 1850's that carries the disclaimer: No Irish Need Apply.

Hullo! That's uncalled for!

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Mansun, class divide = stratification within a society, not one society looking down on another.

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

''You need not speak to me as to one of the fools you take for friends. I have not brought you here to be instructed by you, but to give you a choice''.

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

[Nerwen]

Mansun, what point are you trying to make with that quote?

At most it means that Saruman had the idea that he and his fellow–Maiar might become a ruling class. That wasn't the actual situation.

Besides, this is Saruman we're talking about. He may not have been sincere, but rather planning to enlist Gandalf's aid, then stab him in the back.

[Gwathagor]

Mansun's funny.

[Nerwen]

Well, I am assuming that the quote isn't meant to be directed at anyone.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The correct wording of the quote is "I have not brought you hither to be instructed by you...", and I am not quite sure if what you're quoting is merely obscurant or meant to be insulting (one of the problems with speaking obtusely).

Also, I must say your brief and somewhat vague replies are not the least constructive for the continuance of this dialogue. Please try to be a bit more expansive, and then perhaps we can pick up on this thread's derailed train of thought, which seemingly never made it to the station at its scheduled time.

I sincerely apologise for using here instead of hither. Does that comfort you, Morthoron (this name sounds all too much like foul Mouth of Sauron)?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I am assuming that the quote isn't meant to be directed at anyone.

Saruman was the ultimate elitest loremaster in Middle Earth, with this theme being even more prevalent in the film version. Though, of course, this was almost totally due to his obssession with power, not social class.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I sincerely apologise for using here instead of hither. Does that comfort you, Morthoron (this name sounds all too much like foul Mouth of Sauron)?

I would explain the difference between a quote and a paraphrase, but it would obviously be lost on you. As far as my online tag, it is Sindarin, and your mention of it has nothing to do with the discussion, or more aptly, the lack thereof.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman was the ultimate elitest loremaster in Middle Earth, with this theme being even more prevalent in the film version. Though, of course, this was almost totally due to his obssession with power, not social class.

Again, vague, obtuse and not to the point.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Again, vague, obtuse and not to the point.

From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There are at least two skwerlz watching this thread closely - one for the negative chatting and personal remarks that are being posted, another for the off-topic discussion of issues that are not Tolkien-related. Please return to the topic of the thread - that includes the thread starter, who presumably asked the question because he would like to have it discussed. Quotes that are used in an insulting manner are just as out of place on a public post as one's own words. If you object to remarks that someone else made on a personal basis (as opposed to the treatment of the subject at hand), take it to PM please.

Off-topic posts may be deleted or edited without warning.