Entertainment Weekly calls LOTR Trilogy second best movie of the past 25 years

[Sauron the White]

Nerewen..... if you go to other sites .... lets use theonering.com or theonering.net or board77 or halloffire or many others, you will find the opinion on the movies is not universal. I agree with that. But, and lets be frank here, there is a very loud contingent here who take real pride in putting on an air of superiority which goes something like this
*** we read Tolkien before Peter Jackson was born
*** we know more about Tolkien than most other people
*** we are above the crass commercialization of Hollywood film making
*** its the rest of the world that is badly out of step by embracing these films
*** poor Professor Tolkien was coerced by a bad evil government into making a bad deal to seel the film rights in the first place

Those ideas come through in many posts, from many people in many threads on this site.

Yes, I have read the posts and understand that many other EW selections on this list have been attacked. But is that not to give the tar and feather treatment to the very idea of putting LOTR on the list? After all, if you can show that there are silly or worthless selections on the list, then it also calls into doubt the inclusion of LOTR in such a lofty position doesn't it?

As I have stated, I return to this site again and again because it is a wonderful source of knowledge and information about Tolkien and his writings. There are many wonderful people here. But to deny the anit-film bias among a large crowd here is simply a denial of reality.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

As I have stated, I return to this site again and again because it is a wonderful source of knowledge and information about Tolkien and his writings. There are many wonderful people here. But to deny the anit-film bias among a large crowd here is simply a denial of reality.

I still thinking you're missing the point, Stw. Nobody was denying any anti-film bias. That wasn't even brought up. All that Nerwen was saying was that nobody is saying anything negative about the films being so high on the list. If anything, everyone said positive things.

Pretty much what it looks like is a misunderstanding- you thought they were attacking the movies, but they're not.

Anyway, I say ...congrats for LotR being #2! Although I think it should be #1, I won't have qualms with such a classic as Wizard of Oz.

[Sauron the White]

okay

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Yes, I have read the posts and understand that many other EW selections on this list have been attacked. But is that not to give the tar and feather treatment to the very idea of putting LOTR on the list? After all, if you can show that there are silly or worthless selections on the list, then it also calls into doubt the inclusion of LOTR in such a lofty position doesn't it?

I thought that's what you meant.

a.) I do not think all the films on that list are particularly good.

b.) I do think the LotR films are good films.

According to you, it is impossible to hold both these positions.

The part I can't work out, Sauron, is why we all feel the need to resort to such subterfuge. Do explain. I'm dying of curiosity.

P.S. It's Nerwen, not Nerewen.

[Quempel]

For the record I like the movies, I don't think they are on par with the books, but there is no way in the film media the entire set of books can be filmed. But I really like the movies a lot.

What I was saying is that the entire EW list, not just the LoTR ranking, was a little There are things on the list that make me wonder. And in the books list they didn't even mention the LoTR series, HP was on there, but no LoTR. And come on everyone knows Tolkien was a much better writer.

Having Amy Whinehouse on the list was a bit much too. And some of the other choices made me think they put the names of things in a hat and pulled them out and how they came out of the hat was how they were ranked.

I did think Spinal Tap was a brilliant move though, it made me laugh. Has anyone seen the stage?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Yes, I have read the posts and understand that many other EW selections on this list have been attacked. But is that not to give the tar and feather treatment to the very idea of putting LOTR on the list? After all, if you can show that there are silly or worthless selections on the list, then it also calls into doubt the inclusion of LOTR in such a lofty position doesn't it?

No, it doesn't in the least. In fact, if you had read my first post, you would see that I had listed LotR (right between Schindler's List and Pulp Fiction) as a film that is actually worthy of a Top 25 ranking of movies since '83; however, it just seemed to me that this EW list was one of the most questionable overall that I'd ever seen. Die Hard is a fun movie, but it is nowhere near Amadeus or even Fargo as far as the depth of acting; Casino Royale is a good Bond movie (but there are better), but it pales to the intricacies of The Usual Suspects; Jeremy Irons was very funny as the voice of Scar in the Lion King (and the best character in that cartoon), but his performances in The Mission or Dead Ringers are far more nuanced and...well...superior. Can anyone explain to me how the Disney epic Toy Story *snickers* is better than Akira Kurosawa's epic Ran? I'd like to hear the argument.

I also agreed with AFI's inclusion of FotR as second to the Wizard of Oz (Oz being a far more iconic movie and viewable by a wider demographic than FotR). But even in the AFI's 2007 Top 100 of All-Time (which are only American-made or financed movies), there are only 15 movies made after 1983. Of these, five couldn't even crack EW's vaunted Top 25:

Unforgiven
The Shawshank Redemption
Forest Gump
Platoon
The Sixth Sense

Add to these three more that were on the 1998 original AFI list:

Amadeus
Dances With Wolves
Fargo

And one scratches one's head at some of EW's inclusions (and even more so their exclusions).

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Nerewen..... if you go to other sites .... lets use theonering.com or theonering.net or board77 or halloffire or many others, you will find the opinion on the movies is not universal.

Ummm...StW, having posted occasionally on theonering, I can tell you that that site is fanboy central for the movies. There is so much swooning for Viggo or Orlando or Liv that I want to wretch.

[Lush]

There are things on the list that make me wonder. And in the books list they didn't even mention the LoTR series, HP was on there, but no LoTR.

But Tolkien's work is much older. They are specifically discussing more recent works.

There is so much swooning for Viggo or Orlando or Liv that I want to wretch.

Blasphemy! Swooning is a wonderful pastime. It helps you burn calories.

[Diamond18]

Hah! Good ol' Barrow Downs, I'd almost forgot the inevitable rancor which follows the Movie discussions around like a small, yapping dog.

Not going to argue the points about the 'Downs having a rather large contingent who despise the movies. It most definitely has that.

My intent with posting this wasn't to really make a judgment call on whether or not LotR deserves to be on that list (it's number 1 in my book) but rather to share a tidbit I discovered in my morning mail. Well, afternoon mail, really. My comments about the dubiousness of the distinction stemmed more from having read the entire magazine and found many of the lists oddly chosen. I had the most beef with the music list, but then, I cannot remember ever agreeing with EW on that front.

To be fair, this list isn't so much about "best" as "classic" -- in the sense of cultural impact and popularity. Films that will define this era in the memory of the future (in the EW staff's estimation). So films you might find juvenile in their appeal (like Star Wars, though being pre 1983, is a movie for a different list) are going to trump some better quality films.

For instance:

Can anyone explain to me how the Disney epic Toy Story *snickers* is better than Akira Kurosawa's epic Ran? I'd like to hear the argument.

Oh my head.

Why would you even compare the two? Apples ≠ Oranges.

Toy Story changed the way family/children's movies are made and put Pixar on the map as one of the foremost animation studios. I have not seen Ran personally, but from what I know about it, it's not a children's movie. So why would you even attempt to compare then on any other level than how they've impacted their respective genres and/or how visible they are in mass culture?

And in the books list they didn't even mention the LoTR series, HP was on there, but no LoTR. And come on everyone knows Tolkien was a much better writer.

That's because LotR was not published in the last 25 years.

At any rate, I do think that all points about whether the Jackson succeeded in not desecrating the books aside, LotR IS indeed one of the most important fantasy movies ever made.

[Nerwen]

Diamond, the point is not whether the downs has "a large contigent which despises the movies", but whether the people who disputed EW's choice of films are part of that contigent and are making a sneaky attack on the LotR films while claiming to like them.

[MatthewM]

Listen, everybody, I've had my fair share of disagreements with StW. But fact of the matter is in Post #14 he said "okay" in response to my comment. I gather that he was admitting it was a misunderstanding. So...let's all get along here!

[Lush]

I suppose they had to throw Hannah and Her Sisters, Titanic and Room With a View in order to maintain the readership of the over 50 women's demographic

Older women's opinions possibly mattering to a mainstream publication?

Not that I think that this is actually the case, but if they tried to be inclusive it ought to be a compliment to them, not an insult.

Trust me as someone who works in entertainment journalism to a certain degree: the way these particular things work is that they look at the impact that a movie has made. Not all movies who make great impact are masterpieces. No matter what we say about the hokey dialogue and other travesties, "Titanic" is lush (no pun intended) filmmaking on a scale of legendary, Liz Taylor-era Hollywood. It's a throwback, and a gamble that really worked.

"Titanic," whether we like it or not, has had tremendous impact on the entertainment industry and on popular culture. So its inclusion here makes sense, 100%.

The fact that you would sneer at older women is no better than someone saying something like, "Oh they included LotR? I guess they need to keep the weird loser subcultures happy." It's using a stereotype, which is something you are far too intelligent for (and no, I don't mean that in a condescending, "awww look how smart you are" way).

I'm saying all of this as someone who really likes a lot of what you have to say, Morthoron, and as someone who is sad to see the degeneration of this thread.

StW - It's going to be ooookay. No need to lose your temper. I am here to help keep the fangirl banner flying - ever since 2001, baby. It doesn't always help me win friends and influence people, but it's a job someone has to do.

I do try to do it without derailing otherwise good threads. *wink* *nudge*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Looking over this thread, I see that those posting have been members long enough to know how discussions are conducted on the Downs. I am therefore simply deleting posts or parts thereof that address other members about their way of arguing instead of addressing the subject being discussed. Take personal comments to PM, people, and post on the topic of discussion here. Thank you! Thread temporarily closed for renovation...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lush

"Titanic," whether we like it or not, has had tremendous impact on the entertainment industry and on popular culture. So its inclusion here makes sense, 100%*

I am ambivalent about the film, but you will notice I did not include it in the ones I felt were out of place, but neither did I include it in the ones I truly cared for. I assigned it to purgatory, particularly because Celine Dion sang for it.

Originally Posted by Lush

"The fact that you would sneer at older women is no better than someone saying something like, "Oh they included LotR? I guess they need to keep the weird loser subcultures happy." It's using a stereotype, which is something you are far too intelligent for (and no, I don't mean that in a condescending, "awww look how smart you are" way).

You misunderstand me. I wasn't sneering at older women, rather, the three movies I cited seemed really out of place genre-wise with the rest of the movies chosen; therefore, the only feasible reason I could think of for their inclusion (other than their worth as films) was that EW felt they had to appease a certain demographic (and considering those were movies my mother and aunts liked, I chose an older demo -- I can't see them watching Pulp Fiction, Boogie Nights or The Matrix, although it would be hilarious to watch them watching the movies).

Originally Posted by Lush

"I'm saying all of this as someone who really likes a lot of what you have to say, Morthoron, and as someone who is sad to see the degeneration of this thread.

No specific demographic was harmed in the making of these posts; or actually, from what I've read of the replies, it seems I've insulted a wide spectrum of various demographics. At least I am consistent.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The link for the music list is now working for me. Wow...

I think reading Entertainment Weekly would give me very high blood pressure. It is, as Mothoron suggests, designed to include some picks that will appease certain demographics. Even allowing for this ridiculous limit, was it necessary to include Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera?

I read it using advice from Diamond and Lush, considering cultural impact or whatnot. The music list totally fails, even taking into account impact over quality, so the credibility of the film list is to me suspect.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The link for the music list is now working for me. Wow...

I think reading Entertainment Weekly would give me very high blood pressure. It is, as Mothoron suggests, designed to include some picks that will appease certain demographics. Even allowing for this ridiculous limit, was it necessary to include Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera?

I read it using advice from Diamond and Lush, considering cultural impact or whatnot. The music list totally fails, even taking into account impact over quality, so the credibility of the film list is to me suspect.

I hadn't looked at the 25 New Music Classics previously. Now I wish I hadn't. But I am surprised no one complained that The Lord of the Rings Soundtrack was left off!

If this is what they consider a profoundly and 'culturally-impacting' music list (as opposed to actual great music, which it aint), then Western Civilization is further down the road to exctintion than I surmised (anyone know what time it is on the D-Day clock?).

Be that as it may, I am wondering how they could even list a superb album like Paul Simon's Graceland alongside a Beyonce album, or Cat Power next to Lauryn Hill's Miseducation (to be honest, I've never even heard of Cat Power-- although I recognize everything else on the list -- so much for culturally-impacting)? Does anyone really consider any Mariah Carey album having cultural or musical importance? Perhaps I'm becoming more like my parents (ie., old) in regards to distaste for certain genres of music, but was there a necessity to have Kayne West as a top 5 choice? *shrugs*

Here's a few albums they left off from the last 25 years. I considered these as superlative albums in their respective genres (even though I may not like said genre), as well as having an impact culturally and among musicians. You tell me if EW is off-base:

So by Peter Gabriel -- A sublime album, and, more importantly, the videos of Sledgehammer and Big Time were technically and thematically far advanced of any others on MTV for the time, and made music videos an art form. In Your Eyes and Don't Give Up are gems.

If I Should Fall From Grace With God by The Pogues -- This album defies labels. It is an amalgam of Gaelic folk, Spanish, Middle-eastern, jazz and punk influences. Aside from having some of the best drunken bar ballads available anywhere (and the Pogues obviously influenced other bands, The Dropkick Murphys and The Young Dubliners are but two), the haunting Fairytale of New York, The Broad Majestic Shannon and Lullaby of London counter the fiery, whiskey-soaked fever of other songs on the album.

Joshua Tree or War by U2 -- Why EW chose Achtung Baby as more relevant than Joshua Tree or War is beyond me.

Master of Puppets by Metallica -- I am not a big Metallica fan, but I do know that my thrash guitarist friends and head-bobbing metal junkies consider this as perhaps the greatest heavy-metal album ever made (I prefer Black Sabbath personally, but that's an argument for 1970's bands). The video game Guitar Hero is played by millions and millions of folks and is a cultural phenomenon, with Metallica featured prominently.

Ten by Pearl Jam -- Along with Nirvana, Pearl Jam codified the Grunge sound (from what I recall, either one was a Curt Cobain or Eddie Vedder acolyte), and Grunge (with Pearl Jam as the anti-establishment, anti-rock star poster child) was a radio mainstay for much of the 90's. The video of Jeremy is considered by many to be one of the defining music videos of all time (and MTV certainly played it to death).

It Takes a Whole Nation to Hold Us Back by Public Enemy -- Ummm...Kayne West? Please meet the the real rap deal. Public Enemy's downright scary album influenced nearly every other rapper (including media darling Kayne).

Freedom by Neil Young -- A brilliant reinterpretation of his classic album Rust Never Sleeps. Incendiary guitar work and incendiary political statements (Crime in the City and Rockin' in the Free World -- used by Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11), mingled with lush acoustic ballads to make an intriguing album.

The Bends by Radiohead -- I just like it better than the one EW chose.
*shrugs*

Raising Hell by Run DMC -- Again, I am not at all a rap fan, but wouldn't it make sense to have had this album as culturally impacting, seeing as it was the first great crossover hit?

You know, I could go on and on, adding such albums as Murmur by REM, The Downward Spiral by Nine Inch Nails, The Division Bell by Pink Floyd, Tracy Chapman by Tracy Chapman (take that, Amy Winehouse!), Rhythm Nation 1814 by Janet Jackson (Beyonce who?), Undertow by Tool, Grace by Jeff Buckley, or BloodSugarSexMagic by The Redhot Chili Peppers, each as having a profound impact on music and society, and far better than most of the choices in that top 25.

Bah! I've drank too much coffee again!

P.S. And this, I suppose, is just a roundabout way of saying I question the precarious judgment of EW in choosing its top 25 movies (whether LotR was on the list or not); in fact, I would have argued just as vehemently for LotR if had not been put on the list, and given the odd choices EW made, I'm surprised they managed to sit through the entire film without fidgeting.

[alatar]

Not sure that this is the right thread, but it was announced that US President Barack Obama presented British Prime Minister Gordon Brown with a gift of "25 classic American films," as can be read here. Obviously missing from the list is LotR, and so apologies to PM Brown.

"I went all the way to Washington DC and all I got were some DVDs?!?"

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Not sure that this is the right thread, but it was announced that US President Barack Obama presented British Prime Minister Gordon Brown with a gift of "25 classic American films," as can be read here. Obviously missing from the list is LotR, and so apologies to PM Brown.

"I went all the way to Washington DC and all I got were some DVDs?!?"

Now would seem a good time to define "classic Amercian films" with the emphasis on American. We might even develop a good discussion on what constitutes cultural citizenship for Tolkien, who was English (some may say, Old English) but whose books appear to transcend tribal/cultural divides. But let's keep this to the films now.

Let's see now.

LotR was filmed entirely in New Zealand, right? Where was the post-production work done?

Is Peter Jackson an American? Are the writers of LotR film Americans? And the Producers, the Cinematographers, the--well, everybody who goes into participating in and producing the films. Heck, even the coffee and sandwich caterers and the janitorial staff, because everyone plays a part in producing the final work. And were the teachers of these participants Americans? Were their parents American? And did clearly American works influence their aesthetic/artistic development?

Is New Line an American company? How about Time Warner and MGM?

How many of the actors in the trilogy films are Yanks? How many Brits or Kiwis or Auzs? Or Other European States?

How do the Awards community categorise LotR? How does the media? How does the European media as distinguished from the American media?

I could carry on, but I think my point is clear as mud. Or tax returns definitions.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

If this is what they consider a profoundly and 'culturally-impacting' music list (as opposed to actual great music, which it aint), then Western Civilization is further down the road to exctintion than I surmised (anyone know what time it is on the D-Day clock?).

You tear apart the article for being completely subjective, and having no rhyme or reason, yet want to use it as a marker where society is heading? You can hardly tell where society is going based on some pop EW list.

I know 5 friends who do not like Billy Joel, the rest love his music and even less who do not like Bob Dylan. Amy Winehouse doesn't sound bad, she's just a major crack addict. Although I still have no idea how she's impacted music, no matter what "list" says she will not be remembered for her music. The young generation isn't screwed, I think the older ones just forget the past.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

You can hardly tell where society is going based on some pop EW list.

I can't? Oh. Never mind then.