The Good and The Bad - a Quick Look at the Movies

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Yet we all read in our own way and there's that old adage from Keats about the eye of the beholder. For instance, while you are right that Book Boromir is described as "fair and noble of face", those are not the only words which describe him and I would consider the entire passagae.

Of course, but I only put the first part of the description in because I thought you were referring to looks, so being proud wouldn't apply to that. The way you wrote it made it sound like you were referring to appearance, which wouldn't be a correct assumption as Boromir was good looking.

[MatthewM]

Updated List for The Fellowship of the Ring - Some big ones came into my head that I forgot before. New additions are in bold and spaced apart from the rest!

THE GOOD (Changes, also those scenes which stuck nicely with the book)

* The Prologue. Nicely done, although the geography itself poses a problem for a later scene.
* Gandalf's entrance. McKellen as Gandalf was a great choice. Although some don't care for Frodo's entrance, I think that it worked nicely with Gandalf's, and gives the viewers a decent introduction to the two main characters.
* Gandalf's meeting with Bilbo.
* A Long Expected Party
* The Hobbits. They look like Hobbits should and would look.

* The scene at the Green Dragon in the EE with Merry and Pippin dancing on the tables

* In the EE, we see the flight of the Wood Elves. I love this scene. A great nod to the meeting the Hobbits had with them.
* The Wizard Fight. This is one of the changes PJ made that I actually like, and I think it fits very nicely within Tolkien's world.
* The Nazgul. In my opinion, PJ succeeds in making you feel fear when the Black Riders approach.
* The Prancing Pony. Although I'm not sure how I feel about Frodo's magnetic finger trick, the P.P. scene is definitely kosher with Tolkien. The whole medieval feel of the inn completely does it for me here. Great lighting and everything. A nice nod at the book when you see Bill Ferny and his goons glaring at the Hobbits.
* Aragorn. Good entrance, and although nowadays Viggo would not have been my first choice, I think he pulled the role off nicely.
* The Ranger sword. This was recently debated in a topic here, but I don't see any harm in giving Strider a sword that is actually functional compared with a sword that is broken.
* The Three Trolls. Gives us book fans comfort and joy!
* Scene at the Ford. I have mixed feeling about the actual Flight to the Ford, including Arwen's appearance, but I don't think that it was necessarily bad. It wasn't good, though. I liked the water horses in the actual Ford.
* Many Meetings. You have to like the golden calm of Rivendell...beautiful.
* Arwen and Elrond. Looking good.
* (Strictly appearance wise) Legolas and Gimli fit the part. Bean as Boromir did not, and we will get to that later. I get touchy on this subject! We are talking strictly appearance right now.
* Aragorn and Arwen in the blue twilight. I think this is a great scene, and it plants those important seeds that need to be sown in order to show the people the relationship of A & A. Not to mention, great lighting in this scene. Love the blue.
* "I will take it! Though I do not know the way." I love the way Frodo delivers these lines. It makes for a powerful moment indeed.
* The Ring Goes South. I will get to the bad changes made here, but there are some good elements here which stuck to Tolkien, such as the scenery. I like the choice for Hollin.
* Caradhras. Mixed feelings, it should have been done better and elaborated more. Still, it wasn't that bad compared to some other things. Having Legolas walk on the snow was a major plus and adds to the good of this scene.
* "Knock your head against these doors Peregrin Took...!" I like how they added this (I think it's in the EE) because it shows Gandalf's short temper, especially when it comes to Pip.
* Boromir and Aragorn attempting to slay the Watcher...shows their bravery, rather than just Sam's (as in the book).
* Moria. Was done very well. Of course, as with every part of the story, could have been elaborated more, but looking at what we were given - pretty good. I was glad to see Pippin's folly, although I don't understand why he couldn't have just actually thrown a stone instead of a whole skeleton.
* Pippin putting the final blow into the cave troll. A nice nod to Pippin's grand deed of slaying a troll during the Battle at the Black Gate.
* Gandalf's fall. Nice.
* The scenery of Lothlorien.
* Galadriel. I think Cate was a wise choice. I don't know if it's just me, but after seeing Cate as Galadriel she (Cate) is wayyyy hotter.
* The Mirror of Galadriel. Done well, along with G's temptation.
* The gift scene was nice, although I think it complete rubbish that they didn't show Boromir get his gift of a golden belt.
* The Great River and the Argonaths. Could have elaborated much more, though.
* The Breaking of the Fellowship. The attempt to take the Ring, although I would have done things differently, was nicely done.
* Boromir's death scene. Again, I would have done it a bit differently, but it was done well. It showed Boromir's valiant and heroic nature as he attempted to save M & P.
* The Departure of Boromir. I'm glad they showed his funeral boat going down the Falls of Rauros.
* Aragorn slaying Lurtz. You have to admit, it feels great when he beheads him.
* Frodo and Sam. Done well, especially Frodo thinking of Gandalf's words.
* "Let's hunt some orc." Delivered nicely by Viggo and set up for an optimistic future.

THE BAD

* Let's get it over with...Frodo should have been older.
* The time was out of whack. That was not 17 years!
* Pippin is not in the company that sets off. I do not like this, and "Three is Company" is completely left out of Pippin's story!
* "Conspiracy Unmasked" is also left out. What gives?! The conspiracy was what brought the Hobbits together and from the onset showed Sam, Merry, and Pippin's devotion to Frodo. M & P's entrance from Farmer Maggot's crop is horrible and too random, and is just not true.
* No Farmer Maggot.
* Frodo's magnetic finger. Ok, so I know that a dancing hobbit atop a table falling and slipping on the Ring would not show so well for live action, but I don't know about this scene where Frodo falls after trying to hush Pippin and the Ring in mid-air magically finds his finger. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Ring could do that.
* "Ash on my tomatoes" - although funny, there were no tomatoes in M-e!
* Arwen taking Frodo to the Ford. I've expressed some ok feelings about this scene, but overall - I don't know if it was too good.
* That horrible scene in which Boromir walks into some quiet place in Rivendell where the Shards are just laying on a statue and Aragorn is reading a book. Right off the bat, PJ trys to make Boromir look bad. Book Boromir would have never picked up the hilt of the Shards, then after cutting himself proceed to look at Aragorn with a cowardly face and then drop the hilt, walk away, hear it fall, and then exit the room without picking it up. What rubbish. This is one of my many quarrels with Movie Boromir. He displayed no respect, and Book Boromir would simply not have done that.

* Elrond's little flashback of telling Isildur to destroy the Ring. This is just ugly. First of all, did PJ realize that it would take days to reach Mt. Doom from the Dead Marshes? I think he moved the battle in the first scene, but nonetheless, this scene is just garbage. "Isildur, come with me, hurry!" Wow.

* The Council of Elrond was alright, but it wasn't what it should have been. Boromir should have explained why he was there in the first place. He explains the dream a little bit in the EE, but not in the theatrical. Now, without that explanation, which is the key to why Boromir was in Rivendell in the first place, not to mention the key to why Boromir is the character that he is, how is anybody supposed to know what this guy is doing at Rivendell to hear this almighty Council? Besides my problems with movie Boromir, there were other things about this scene. When the whole council stands up after Gimli's bombastic "no one trust an elf!" line, which I do not like, Gandalf stands up and just starts picking fights with people. He blantantly starts picking a fight with Boromir, I believe. Just does not seem like Gandalf. However, I do like, and I forgot to put this on the "good" list, when Gandalf stands and speaks the Black Tongue to all at the Council in the EE. Nicely done.
* Appearance wise: Boromir does not fit. He was dark-haired, first of all, not light brown haired. He most likely didn't have a beard, seeing as how he was only 40 (not even half of his Numenorean life-span, Faramir lived to be around 118, and both were of "High Numenorean lineage"). He wore a stone around his neck. He did not openly wear chain-mail. And he carried a long sword, not a broad sword. His horn was tipped with silver, not gold. PJ's Boromir doesn't fit the description. People like Bean's Boromir, but I am not a huge fan. Character wise, I don't think PJ did that great. I think book Boromir was much nobler. But I'm not getting into that again. I'm sure a similiar argument could be had with PJ's Aragorn.
* "You have my sword" "and you have my bow", ...etc. This just doesn't make sense and would not work in real life. M-e was a realm of valour and courage. I know this saved time rather than Elrond making the decision after the council, but come on. So PJ is saying that the whole other lot of people present at the Council are all cowards? Seems so. If one person started joining in with "you have my sword", and then this random elf and dwarf gave their pledge, I can assure you that if that was real life most if not all of the others present would also volunteer to go, especially after seeing the others volunteer. "You have my sword Frodo!" ... "No, my sword!" ... "Hey, me too, my axe!!!" Ugh.
* Gandalf being reluctant to go into the Mines. Although I personally think it works better, why did it need to be changed? Aragorn's the one who warned against the Mines, Gandalf wanted to go under from the onset. One of the least bothersome changes, in my opinion.
* Caradhras. While hiking up the mountain, Frodo falls for some reason, tumbles, and in the process the Ring comes off his neck. Then PJ does something that makes no sense to me. He has Boromir pick up the Ring, and although I love the nod to the book (when PJ takes a line from Boromir's speech before he trys to take the Ring) in Bean's "it is a strange fate...", having Boromir pick up the Ring just does not make sense. Firstly, wouldn't technically then he be considered one of the Ring-bearers, regardless of how long he held it? He still held it. Secondly, again PJ is making Boromir look like a bad guy, having the good guy Aragorn almost strike Boromir with his sword. I just don't like this scene...and I know what people in defense would say. "They had to build up Boromir's temptation of the Ring" but come on now, I just don't buy that. Boromir wasn't seriously tempted until Lothlorien.
* Saruman being responsible for having the snow come crashing down onto the Fellowship. Takes away the raw power and mysticism that is Caradhras.
* Balin's Tomb. Not in full - for I like a lot of this battle, especially the moments building up to it, and when the Hobbits scream and go into battle. However, Gimli stands on Balin's grave - that's just not right. And, in the EE, the troll whipping Boromir around unconscious is pretty silly.
* Lothlorien. The Company should have been blindfolded. Definitely could have stuck to the story. Gollum could have made another appearance. Orcs could have been shown getting slayed by ranged elven archers.
* The Mirror. Sam could have been there, but I won't argue much with this one. It was important to get Frodo there, but not really Sam.
* Galadriel's Gifts (EE). Why the heck doesn't PJ film Boromir receiving his gift? Why in the world would he not include that? Especially because the scene was an extended so he didn't have to worry about time, plus the fact it would have taken about 10 seconds. Boromir should have received his golden belt on film. There's no logical reason for not showing it.
* I would have liked to hear some debate about whether or not the Company would go through Fangorn. I would have liked to see more debate before The Great River.
* No Orcs shooting arrows at the Company. No Legolas shooting down the Winged Beast. Like I mentioned, it's nice because I love these scenes so much so I'm glad in a way they were not filmed, but it would have been cool.
* Tol Brandir was not really explained. I don't recall them explaining how it was that Frodo saw what he saw, being on the Seat of Seeing.
* Frodo should have announced he was going off. The guy just wanders away without telling anyone? Would the ring bearer really do that? Come on.
* Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.

[Sauron the White]

Matthew - regarding these two on the bad side of the ledger..........

Boromir's speech to Frodo before he trys and takes the Ring is almost wholly absent. This is very upsetting as this is one of the best parts in the book. The scene is rather rushed.
* Boromir was pierced by numerous arrows, not just three.

One inherent difference in movies and books is there simply is not space for long speeches in films. If you look at almost every speech in the books, they were seriously shortened for the film. That is simply part and parcel of the medium. It does not lend itself to long speeches - especially with todays audiences for good or bad.

Most things in films are shortened when they involve numerical repetition, and that may also apply to the arrows piercing Boromir. I think what Jackson did here was to give Lurtz thicker and heavier arrows so the effect of each one was magnified beyond that of a normal much thinner arrow. And his slow-mo reaction makes each one seem more important. Its simply a difference in style. Remember, in the book we see nothing of this, only the after effects. In the films its much more dramatic and painful to actually witness it.

[Gwathagor]

PJ just wanted another fight scene. It would have taken less time for Aragorn to have come upon Boromir with a TON of arrows already stuck in him, than for us to watch him get shot thrice in slow-mo.

I thought the scene was well-done, but I wanted more arrows. Come on, Boromir! Three? Really? Is that all it took?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Of course, but I only put the first part of the description in because I thought you were referring to looks, so being proud wouldn't apply to that. The way you wrote it made it sound like you were referring to appearance, which wouldn't be a correct assumption as Boromir was good looking.

It's a matter of how one reads the passage.

Originally Posted by Tolkien's description of Boromir in Council of Elrond

And seated a little apart was a tall man with a fair and noble face, dark-haired and grey-eyed, proud and stern of glance.

If "proud" were the third item in this list of Boromir's characteristics, there would be, as I read it of course, a comma separating "proud" from "stern of glance." But there is no comma between "proud" and "stern of glance". So we have two coordinate phrases linked by "and", "dark-haired and grey-eyed" and "proud and stern of glance."

So "proud" does not this time describe his emotional or psychological nature, but instead modifies "glance." Thus I read this last characteristic as a qualifier of that "fair and noble face"; it is part of the characteristics of Boromir's face, which is overcast, if you will, by Boromir's "proud and stern" glances. That is, his physical features are marred by this manner of looking around him. His attractiveness is overwritten by this intimidating manner of looking at people.

Pardon the focus on grammar--which can be tedious to many--but it is why I would include "proud and stern of glance" in any consideration of how attractive Book Boromir's face is/was. He ain't just a good-looker; there's something else more ominous in that face.

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled lists.