Can I just admit that I'm addicted to LotR fanfiction?

[Lush]

Oh dear.

Btw, anyone know of any good ones that center on Aragorn? The Legolas ones are a dime a dozen, and some are very, very good, but you kinda hate to see a King getting snubbed like that. Especially when you consider the wealth of material to work with there (and no, I don't just mean good looks ).

[Lush]

Here's a random observation,

A lot of the fanfics written by young girls mention abuse. Now obviously a checkered past is a staple of the Mary Sue, but you have to wonder how many of the authors are dealing with their own problems this way.

I certainly did when I was a kid. I look over my old stories now, and go, "hmmm, well this badly drawn character with the blue eyes had this nasty thing happen to her and look here, it says 'the scars on her soul.' Bad line, but hmmm."

Fanfiction as low-grade therapy, baby.

[Nerwen]

I think it's more often angst at being forced to do the dishes.

Most things you see a lot in fan-fiction are, purely and simply, the result of writers copying each other. People like me who mock it for a hobby– we call ourselves "sporkers", and it's practically a subculture– know that there are a few basic elements that recur with absurd frequency in story after story, e.g.

There is a tenth member of the Fellowship.

Boromir is an evil misogynist.

The main character is Elrond's other daughter.

Or Sauron's daughter.

Legolas and Aragorn are boyhood friends and have adventures together.

Thranduil is a drunk and beats Legolas.

Either Legolas or Aragorn is blind/deaf/mute/crippled/scarred.

A male character has a baby. (AKA "Mpreg".)

Elladan and Elrohir are pranksters (a la the Weasley twins).

And, of course,

Abused girl is hit by a car, wakes up in Middle-earth and finds out that she is the Chosen One.


We actually classify fan-fics by their dominant cliches: "Look, another Blind!Aragorn".

What I'm saying is, there's no way fan-fic authors could be coming up with all this independently.

Another thing: Because it's such a cliche, stories about abuse will attract a lot of negative reviews– Fan-fic authors get very upset at this and defend their stories hotly, but I've never known one to use the grounds that it all happened to her. I know many former "Suethors" who tell me they put all the trauma stuff in because, well, everyone else did and they kind of thought you had to. In fact– I'll come clean– I've produced some pretty melodramatic stories myself!

In fact, judging from my own travesties, I think the other thing at work here is that young writers know that you're meant to give the main character some kind of adversity to overcome, but they just haven't learned any sense of moderation yet.

Edit: I'm not saying every fan-fiction is terrible. There are some very good ones around. It's just that I deliberately seek out bad ones...

[Lush]

Like you, I like seeking out the bad ones as well. I think they can be hugely entertaining, and you can pretty much play bingo with all the clichés. I also see sometimes how young authors in particular try the various, ah, staples on the genre on for size and explore what they can do with them. Those I always find interesting.

I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of real abuse survivors who are writing this stuff. Obviously abuse is great for when you're creating faux tension - "Legolas! Oh noes! We can't be together - my creepy uncle once turned me into a newt as a practical joke, and I've just never been the same! I love you! Don't touch me!"

On the other hand, some of the very disturbing and resonating descriptions of abuse are obviously either the result of a great imagination, actual trauma, or some combination thereof.

*cough* When Lush was a wee little girl, she wrote melodramatic prose about her own abuse, which helped her cope. If only fan fiction was around back then. *coughedy cough*

[mark12_30]

An interesting teacher (John Eldridge at RansomedHeart) says that there are six basic desires woven into the fabric of humans. Let's see if I can recall all six.

The desire for a great battle to fight; the desire for a great adventure; the desire for a Beauty to rescue. Versus, the desire to be fought for; the desire for shared adventure (in the process of being fought for); and the desire to be The Beauty.

Another significant desire is the desire to heal. Beauty Heals (insert temporarily disabled hero). I remember this one myself; favorites stories were about rescuing angst-ridden heroes (Mad Lancelot, for instance).

Having said all that, I think most stories are autobiographical to some degree. Especially if they are any good; but even when they are not. Your pardon all, but using the phrase "writing as therapy" simply gains one the label Captain Obvious. What else is it? What else could it possibly be? Any story that we tell, we tell because we are part of a story ourselves, and we remind ourselves of the themes of our story by weaving those themes into the stories we tell.

So a young authoress wants to be Elrond's Other Daughter, the Beauty to be rescued... it comes from those root desires. And the ubiquitous Hack 'N' Whack... same thing.

What do we desire, anyway? Should we be surprised if those desires surface in the stories we write? I am forty-seven years old... I think. More or less. Anyway, the stories I wrote when I was fourteen (long since burned) meet many of Nerwen's checklists (except mpreg). I rescued many heroes, including Lancelot (mad), Boromir (rescuscitated from his elvish boat after Faramir's vision) and so on and so forth. Was it based on being a depressed kid, moping about wishing that somebody loyal might fight for me and rescue me out of my moping? Oh, I suppose, you know, maybe.

I shall agree with Lush quite loudly about this: just because the author of an abused Marysue doesn't announce that she suffered similar things, I would not therefore assume that she had, therefore, not suffered similar things.

Elrond's other daughter. Hmmm. How come I never wrote that one?

[Nerwen]

Look, I didn't mean to offend you, guys, and I'm very sorry to hear this happened to you– but I don't think for a moment that I'm underestimating the numbers. Buried in the heap there may well be a few who are using it as therapy... but most of these girls are, my view, very, very clearly copying from each other. Also they use it– quite shamelessly– to give their stories "cred".

If you'll forgive me for saying this– people who have had such experiences may not be better at judging than anyone else, simply because they're so ready to see it everywhere, to believe they have a special insight, and to be willing to ignore the signs that scream, "Fake!" to everyone else. Which is quite natural, but it doesn't make them right.

I have known such a person in real life who maintains to this day that I "must" have been abused myself, and am "in denial"!

Guess what? She's wrong.

EDIT: There's really not a lot of point continuing this particular argument, because it heads straight into "negative proof" territory. (Also, I guess it has the potential to be deeply hurtful to some people.) I am just giving you my opinion here.

[Lush]

I'm not offended, Nerwen. I think this is an interesting conversation.

If you'll forgive me for saying this– people who have had such experiences may not be better at judging than anyone else, simply because they're so ready to see it everywhere, to believe they have a special insight, and to be willing to ignore the signs that scream, "Fake!" to everyone else.

I don't speak for anyone else, just myself and the people I have worked with, but I rarely meet survivors who are "ready to see it everywhere." I think your conception about what it means to be a survivor of childhood abuse is off. We're not all madwomen stuck in the attic with a DSL connection, usually it's quite the opposite. If your friend is trying to convince you of past abuse that never happened, it's most likely that she has yet to work out her own issues, and is probably trying to connect to you through a shared history that just doesn't exist. This is unfortunate, and you should tell her so (though if she does have actual trauma in her life, it's best to tread lightly - while still being firm, of course). I would caution you against making sweeping statements about "people who have had such experiences" - and what they're good, and not good, at. I am very comfortable discussing my past abuse in public - I think the embarrassed silence that surrounds it is what enables abusers - but I wouldn't be comfortable discussing it with an individual who purports to know exactly how it has affected me and what it makes me able, or unable, to do.

I think copying others is actually a great way to allow your work to serve a purpose, first and foremost, to yourself. Using familiar tropes is comforting. It doesn't make for good writing, but it does allow you some measure of control over a narrative without necessarily overstepping certain internal boundaries.

My thoughts on the matter are not meant to take away from your fun of skewering bad fanfic. It's my type of fun as well. But I think it is true that many people use fanfic to work out their own issues and desires, and the interesting ones do it interestingly (interesting doesn't always mean good, btw).

Your pardon all, but using the phrase "writing as therapy" simply gains one the label Captain Obvious.

I actually never thought of my own writing, or anyone else's, as therapy - for a long time. Writing was always Art, and anyone who wasn't striving to make Art through writing was basically worthless in my eyes. Then I loosened up a bit, and saw that it was many things. When I write ghost stories for my kid brother, is it Art? Probably not. But that doesn't make me want to stop, oddly enough.

[Nerwen]

Lush, I wasn't trying to make sweeping statements about you or anyone. I was speaking only of the subset of people who claim their judgement is more valid than that of the rest of us, due to what they've been through. I was just putting forward reasons why this may not be the case. At no time did I mean this to apply to all victims of abuse.

I have to say, though, people who have a history of trauma are, in my limited experience at least, very apt to do what I described. Perhaps they are not representative– an exception rather than the rule. All I can say is that some people react in this way, and leave it at that.

Anyway, obviously I did offend you, and I'm sorry for that.

I guess I did not make it clear what I was trying to say. I'm not really all that good at expressing myself verbally. (I've been lynched in WW for this!)

Once again, after reading reams of angsty fan-fic, I find it impossible to believe that most "fanbrats" are other than spoiled teenagers working off their natural adolescent hostility to their parents. Like I did.

EDIT: clarifying, adding a comment.