Who do you reckon is the braver race in general, men or elves?

[Groin Redbeard]

This is an interesting question. Are men braver because they risk their already short life just by going into battle, or are the elves who risk their infinite life by going into battle. My opinion is that man is braver than an elf. Honor, courage, a selflessness is what makes a great warrior. A man can only live for a short time therefore he will try to win as much honor in battle as possible so that he can be remembered even after his death, whereas an elf would not be as proned to do so seeing as he can live longer if he is simply careful.

Also the uncertainty after death is an excellent point made by the Might, elves know their destiny after death and men do not. This uncertainty is certainly enough to stall death as long as possible, therefore making courageous acts in battle all the more memorable.

[Morthoron]

The Elves were braver. They were not prone to panic and fearful flight like men, nor did they betray their comrades in battle as men are sometimes wont to do.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Elves were braver. They were not prone to panic and fearful flight like men, nor did they betray their comrades in battle as men are sometimes wont to do.

Need I mention the betrayel and fall of the great fortress city of Gondolin, it was an elf who betrayed them.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Need I mention the betrayel and fall of the great fortress city of Gondolin, it was an elf who betrayed them.

Maeglin was a single individual (and by no means representative of Elves in general); however, I was referring to betrayal in battle by large numbers of men, such as Uldor and his entire host of Easterlings in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. If you are referring to betrayal outside of battle (as Maeglin would be), then there are the cursed army of men of the Dimholt who betrayed Isildur.

I can't recall an entire army of elves being turned in a horde of walking dead due their cowardly betrayal, can you?

[Elmo]

Well a lot of the Elves did get turned into the undead, when they refused to go to Mandos when they died. Maybe that isn't cowardice but a lack of faith. Two different things believe it or not.

[Bêthberry]

I'm going to pop in here with a different tangent. I realise this is just the sort of discussion that Downers relish, so I hope this isn't exactly some throwing some water on the debate, more like a new pot, perhaps.

But, it is really quite in keeping with the values suggested in LotR to make even general or broad comparisons between the Middle-earth races? I know we endlessly generalise about elvish ennui and hobbitish resilience and dwarvish stamina, but is it really kosher to compare races? It's not something we accept readily nowadays in the primary world--racial comparison--and to me it has the sense of being quite far from anything Tolkien himself would have considered. Individual members certainly are up for comparison, but entire races?

Given the values suggested in LotR, is it really valuable or feasible to make comparative generalisations about the races? I suppose, too, one could ask if race is precisely the best word here to characterise the elves, hobbits, men, dwarves. Are they not separate species (which in several special circumstances can apparently interbreed?)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well (unfortunately I'll be a little brief here), I think it's a good point you raise, but I think it's not that inappropriate to find some common "racial traits" (and by the way, as for species or race or whatever word you use, I don't see difference here... it will be playing with words, what we simply mean by it here is Elves, Dwarves, Men... everyone knows what it means). Of course you can't apply some trait on every single individual, but in Middle-Earth, in some things, on the contrary to our world, there really are differences between the races. The Dwarves have something specific about them, as do the Elves, as do the Orcs and even Hobbits compared to the Men - and ALL Dwarves, ALL Elves... etc. seem to have it. Or are supposed to have it, the way the books portray it. Of course, it will be a matter of interesting "post-modern" (in the best sense) interpretation to try to say that in fact, there was nothing like specific racial traits and that the only thing all the Dwarves, all the Elves etc. have in common is that they have some common ancestry, culture etc.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Are they not separate species (which in several special circumstances can apparently interbreed?)

Yes, I suppose you could say there is a genus (Children of Illuvatar) separated into species and subspecies (Men, Elves, Orc, etc.); whereas race would identify specific differentiations within a given species (Easterlings, Numenoreans, Dunlendings, Rohirrim, Haradrim, etc.). But doesn't all that taxonomic biology get a bit tedious, particularly with Tolkien's penchant for vaguery and backpedaling (Orcs -- did they arise from Men or Elves?)?