Dueling Wizards Werewolf II discussion thread

[Nogrod]

I just skimmed through the latest. I'm in Romania and will only be able to read and post haphazardly for a week.

I think there has been one misunderstanding - even if I now think the correct understanding also has a flaw.

The idea of the GW being able to "protect" someone from scrying if she had her roster full and didn't wish to try and scry for the finding of the EW was that she would be able to protect one of her own minions from the EW's scry. Then technically she isn't so much scrying her (the gifted has been scried already) but kind of counterscrying eg. not allowing the EW to scry that gifted that Night.

But thinking this forwards raises a problem as well to the GW, for this surely works for the EW as well as the one who could not be scried but didn't die surely is now a gifted known to be one to the EW.

Maybe that's not something the GW would like to do in the first place as she has a lot of work trying to find the EW by her scries. Clearly with a roster full the GW can go on "identity-scrying" in any case.

Then if both wizards scry the same person that one person dies having received too much magic the same Night.

Also I'd say there will be no open proclamation that the EW has learned the identity of the GW - or vice versa. That's Night-bussiness known only those who may know it.

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?

I try to come back to you sooner rather than later but I can't guarantee anything as the schedual here is quite tight.

Nice to see you The Ka to comfirm and sad to see you Valier not to do that...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

About communication also one point. If the wizard gives away the identities of one or other gifteds/wolves to one or more others, it's her decision. After two or more know of each other they can communicate between themselves straight. But so long as the identities are not revealed by the wizard on purpose there is no such possibility. To me this would sound fair and straightforward. What do you think?

Good, but I'd rather have it so that the wizard can reveal her minions' identities to each other, but that does not automatically give them the right to PM with each other, the wizard has to grant that right also.

[the phantom]

I think it is indeed a good idea to allow gifteds who have been revealed to each other to communicate, and I also agree with Lommy that this should not be automatic but an ability granted by the Wizard. Hmm... I can think of some interesting things that could develop as a result of this.

[Roa_Aoife]

The reason that the EW and the GW scrying the same person results in a death rather than a reveal is because in the last game, the above scenario happened on Night One. LMP thought that the first day was WAAAAAY too early for everything to be over, and so scratched the whole plan, leaving one very confused and, well, boastful innocent who got lynched on the first day. In the discussion afterwards, it was agreed that this method of reveal was too problematic. So instead, the innocent scried by both wizards dies. Wizards can still determine each other's identity by scrying the other wizard, attacking them via wolf or hunter, getting them lynched, or having the seer dream of them. That's plenty right there.

I don't believe the GW should be able to protect his own gifted from the EW's scrying, and here's why: If a gifted loses his giftedness, he does NOT change sides. He's still a good guy, and the chances of him becoming a wolf on the following night are slim to none, since both wizard's scrying the same person will kill him, or the EW will simply take him out. However, if a wolf is scried, he immediately changes sides to the good team, and any and all information he knows goes to the good team as well. The EW is actually at greater risk from the wolves being scried than the GW is from losing gifted. To take away even more risk of that would be giving too much of an advantage to the good team.

Also, the wizards should have complete control of the communication for their respective teams. Information control is the greatest asset each wizard has for enacting strategies.

Now, I just want to check on the order of events for each night, so here's what I think:

1. Wizards scry and get that information
2. Ranger protects, Hunter hunts, and Seer dreams
3. Wolves attack

Obviously it won't happen that way, well, ever. But for the purposes of determining what happens when, I think it's important to lay this out. It's important that the wizard's know what's going to happen every night at the start, at least as far as their own team is concerned. That way each wizard can best utilize their own team to it's fullest extent. I believe the GW's biggest issue was the passing of information that crippled the good team the most.

[mormegil]

Any approximate on starting dates?

[Gwathagor]

Hey, um, this is going to make me really look stupid, but...what exactly do the ranger and hunter do?

[Roa_Aoife]

Don't worry about it, Gwath.

The ranger picks one person a night to protect. If the wolves attack that person, there is no kill.

The hunter also picks one person a night to hunt. If the wolves kill the hunter, that person dies also.

It should also be noted that the hunter has a long and proud history of killing the seer.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Any approximate on starting dates?

The approximate I have talked of earlier was May 30th to 31st - beginning with a Night phase. So that makes it something like ten days from now.

I'll be home late Sunday-evening and will start drawing things together in the beginning of next week. We have now something like 24 players. We'd do well with a couple more even if the game can be played fine with this number of players. But if you have someone in mind please call them to join. I will do some calling next week if the number of players has stayed the same as I get home from my trip.

I'll look at the family trees as well then.


I do agree with many here that the wizard's minions should need a license from their wizard to PM together. Also I see Roa's argument on the GW not being able to "scry-protect" her gifteds quite persuasive.

Keep on bringing up any issues that come to mind and commenting on those already discussed. I'll be working out the more detailed rules next week so until then all points will be considered.

[Gwathagor]

I eagerly await the formalized rules, when all shall be made clear and order created out of the chaos.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Volo

Oukei, so in that case I'm his grandfather.

I thought you were a ca- I mean, a dog? Or has your sudden canine transformation reversed?

Anyways, I'm still rather confused. If Volo is Nogrod's grandfather, then Roa's children would be our aunts and uncle from before or now our cousins (or by hobbit standards, possibly)?
Though, I think Nogrod will be able to clear up his relation in another family tree. Hopefully.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Nice to see you The Ka to comfirm

Awh, well, I couldn't leave Aganzir sisterless.

Originally Posted by Roa

It should also be noted that the hunter has a long and proud history of killing the seer.

I'm actually rather curious how that is going to work out in this game, say, if the EW finds the seer before our hunter does, etc.

I'm going to have to agree with Roa on the abilities of the GW. It doesn't leave much unpredictibility to the game if either way a gifted or a wolf has a greater chance of automatically changing sides. We'd still lose wolves and gifteds, but the ordos would win with a greater advantage by majority in numbers alone. I know, they're "supposed" to win, but still... Think of the wolves too...

~Ka