What do you think of the Bakshi cartoon?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I felt -- and do feel - quite the opposite.
It is interesting that the source material - LOTR - was the same but the reception of the two versions could not have been more different. Bakshi's film was a flop in so many ways inclduing artistically, box office return, critical acceptance, and was forgotten by industry awards. Jacksons adaption, as we all know, was a wild success in all those areas of measurement.

*shrugs*

Not to niggle, but you're letting your animosity color your representation of the facts:

It was a box office success according to many sources on the net, grossing $30.5 million in 1978 dollars, with a budget of only $3-4 million (a 100% profit is quite respectable, I'd say).

It was nominated for Hugo and Saturn awards (Saturns did not have a best animated film category until 2004, and the Hugo has never had one) as well as winning a Golden Griffon. As you may not be aware, full-length animated films rarely receive any Academy Award or other major film recognition (in 1991 Disney's Beauty and the Beast was the first animated film ever to receive an Oscar nomination for Best Film).

Critical review was mixed, not universally panned. Check your sources.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Its the singer - not the song.

Ah, but there is no tune if there are none to pay the piper. Bakshi managed to get a lot out of the tin whistle he could afford; who knows how he would have played had he been handed Jackson's Stradivarius.

Again, it's all a matter of opinion, I suppose. It was certainly not great, but it was not as abysmal as you make it out to be. Thus, I believe I have adequately defended mediocrity.

[Sauron the White]

I agree that Bakshi was handicapped by the budget he had to work with. That applies to almost every filmmaker inclduing Jackson who had to work within the constraints of a budget, although larger by comparison. My complaint is with how Bakshi spent his money. The film is a mismash of styles that are at times at odds with each other. He hired such artists as Mike Ploog - who did these enchanting light hearted classical Disney drawings - and then hired other artists who worked in a very fuzzy, almost impressionistic style. Then we have the weird negative images of the orcs which defy almost any identifiable style.

Pick a style - any style - and stick with it. Bakshi's LOTR was not FANTASIA with individual vignettes telling individual stories with individual styles and approaches. It was suppose to be one film and as such with one vision.

If Bakshi's film returned a 100% or better profit as you indicate, I wonder why the second half of that film was not given the greenlight? If those figures are true and accurate, I would have thought that the studio would gladly put up the funds to double or triple their investment yet again.

The HUGO and SATURN awards are not given by the professional film community. As such, they are not an expression of film excellence in the same sense that the Oscars and Bafta's are. I guess one could take the approach that an award is an award is an award. For my money, I put them in a far different - and lower - category.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The film is a mismash of styles that are at times at odds with each other. He hired such artists as Mike Ploog - who did these enchanting light hearted classical Disney drawings - and then hired other artists who worked in a very fuzzy, almost impressionistic style. Then we have the weird negative images of the orcs which defy almost any identifiable style. .

I blame Tim Burton, whose first animation job was on Bakshi's LotR. He is by definition weird.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

If Bakshi's film returned a 100% or better profit as you indicate, I wonder why the second half of that film was not given the greenlight? If those figures are true and accurate, I would have thought that the studio would gladly put up the funds to double or triple their investment yet again.

Mr. White, I request that you immediately desist in using logic regarding the Hollywood process of making films. If one were to use logic, then Bakshi would have had more money for his budget to begin with. Hollywood defies logic, much like Wile E. Coyote complained that the Roadrunner defied the law of gravity (to which the Roadrunner replied he had never studied law).

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The HUGO and SATURN awards are not given by the professional film community. As such, they are not an expression of film excellence in the same sense that the Oscars and Bafta's are. I guess one could take the approach that an award is an award is an award. For my money, I put them in a far different - and lower - category.

*Grumbles* You must have missed the part of my last post explaining that full-length animated films did not receive Academy Award nominations during most of the history of the Oscars.

[Makar]

Sorry if this is mentioned here already, but tl;dr.

I once read that Jackson had seen the Bakshi cartoon as young lad and quite enjoyed it. In fact, in my opinion, he liked it so much that he stole a few shots from it. What comes directly to mind is Bakshi and Jackson's portrayals of the Hobbits hiding under the tree near the rode in Three is Company as well as the scene where the Black Riders stab the stuffed pillows. There are only so many ways to do a scene, one might say, but several are strikingly similar. Does anyone remember any others?

[Sauron the White]

from Morthoron

*Grumbles* You must have missed the part of my last post explaining that full-length animated films did not receive Academy Award nominations during most of the history of the Oscars.

No I did not miss it ... or overlook it ... or ignore it. It would be more accurate and inclusive to say that the Motion Picture Academy did not bestow its higher awards on any fantasy based film regardless of its medium or format until ROTK. That applied to animated gems like FANTASIA or PINNOCHIO and to non-animated films such as WIZARD OF OZ and ET. Jackson's ROTK sweep of 11 out of 11 nominations into awards, including Best Film of the Year, rewrote that particular truism of the Oscars.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

No I did not miss it ... or overlook it ... or ignore it. It would be more accurate and inclusive to say that the Motion Picture Academy did not bestow its higher awards on any fantasy based film regardless of its medium or format until ROTK. That applied to animated gems like FANTASIA or PINNOCHIO and to non-animated films such as WIZARD OF OZ and ET. Jackson's ROTK sweep of 11 out of 11 nominations into awards, including Best Film of the Year, rewrote that particular truism of the Oscars.

There have been several fantasies that have been nominated for Academy awards, like for Best Picture (Wizard of Oz, Dr. Doolittle, A Clockwork Orange, Star Wars, Babe, The Ten Commandments...okay, I'm joking about that one), but did not win (but won Oscars in other categories); however, no full-length cartoon was ever nominated for a major Oscar until 1991 (Beauty and the Beast). And, no, I don't believe Bakshi's LotR warranted a Best Picture nomination in any case.

By the way, were you aware that only one G-Rated film has ever won Best Picture Oscar? It was the musical Oliver!

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Makar

Sorry if this is mentioned here already, but tl;dr.

I once read that Jackson had seen the Bakshi cartoon as young lad and quite enjoyed it. In fact, in my opinion, he liked it so much that he stole a few shots from it. What comes directly to mind is Bakshi and Jackson's portrayals of the Hobbits hiding under the tree near the rode in Three is Company as well as the scene where the Black Riders stab the stuffed pillows. There are only so many ways to do a scene, one might say, but several are strikingly similar. Does anyone remember any others?

as mentioned earlier on in this thread (a couple of years ago??!!!) - the ring bouncing down the rocks in both introductions of the film.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

That concept of masculinity just don't cut it no more, no more, no more

What about Indiana Jones?


Incidentally, most might be interested in one moose's take on the Bakshi version: http://www.flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm

[Annatar]

It wasn't good.