How many in Battle of 5 Armies?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Well...

Just as the Dwarves were at a disadvantage underground, the Elves were at a disadvantage out of the forest. I doubt the Elves had the metal of the dwarves to protect themselves at a common soldier level, and their bows, however strong, would not I think be an armour piercing variety, but rather designed to kill "soft" objects like the spiders and beasts of Dol Guldur.

The men themselves had lived on a raft town and had not traded with dwarves for years, so no metal or cavalry for them either.

Thus the mixed army of men and elves was essentially an archer army, perhaps only double the size of Dain's. They were poor at hand to hand combat, yet forced to stay by the gate of the mountain for fear of a breakthrough. They were fraught with indecision over whether or not to fight; by comparison we know Dwarves are not famed for peacemaking when a liegelord and pile of jewels is in danger.

What I believe would have happened at the supposed battle between the Dwarves and the allies: Dain charges through in a direct path to either the gate or the two leaders' camps. The men and elves are either taken by surprise, or are ready to stand and fight, and are slaughtered (sadly) by metal weaponry and armour. Dain either cuts his way to the gate before the Men and Elves can regroup, or kills either King and their forces flee. The End.

Examples of this happening in history:

Age of Alexander - Alexander crushes Darius' light archer-based armies with a strong corps of heavy infantrymen at Issus and Gaugamela.

Roman period - Often outnumbered, Roman legions win consistently against larger but lighter forces of barbarians.

Dark Ages - This is the period of myths which Tolkien bases his legendarium upon. Tough men (Vikings) with axes, armour and shields are superior to other opponents. Which side does this description remind you of?

Middle Ages - The heavy knight is king, save for the armour piercing crossbow, which neither side in the Battle for Erebor possessed.

I'm open to other viewpoints...

One last historical example:

Agincourt - Henry V's small English force armed with longbows (not crossbows) and pikes devastates Charles the Good's much larger army of infantrymen and heavy knights.

There are a few key similarities with the Battle of 5 Armies: the elves use weapons similar to those use by the English, and the dwarves are heavily armored, like the French knights. However, there are several important differences as well. The elven host was at least twice as large as Dain's army, and the dwarves had no horses, which only further emphasized their natural lack of height, speed, and reach.

The dwarves, while heavily armored, would have been slow to actually reach the elven army, during which time the elven bows would have wreaked havoc. Hand-to-hand, the elves' long spears would cause problems for the height and reach impaired dwarves. Once, however, the dwarves broke through that first line of spears and managed to get up close, the elves doubtless would have incurred a lot of casualties. In the end, though, I think the elves' superior numbers and superb archers would have tipped the blance in their favor.

The strange terrain would not have worked in favor of either army, as both were out of their element and therefore both at a disadvantage. The elves were used to forest and the dwarves to caves.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The strange terrain would not have worked in favor of either army, as both were out of their element and therefore both at a disadvantage. The elves were used to forest and the dwarves to caves.

I think that just about sums it up. They would have both had many casualties due to unfamiliarity of the terrain.

[Groin Redbeard]

Great idea's guys, I really like the way that this discussion is turning out.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

The dwarves, while heavily armored, would have been slow to actually reach the elven army, during which time the elven bows would have wreaked havoc. Hand-to-hand, the elves' long spears would cause problems for the height and reach impaired dwarves.

I don't think that the dwarves would have any trouble in reaching the elven army. Elf arrows would be a problem, but the spearmen wouldn't pose much of a threat to the dwarf axes. The dwarf's stature would be an advantage, since they are so small they can adapt to tight fighting places, giving them more room to fight than a Man. Once the dwarves got into a melee with the elves they would hack them apart, I don't know about you but I think that dwarves excel in close quarter fighting. Also, I don't imagine the wood elves as being heavily armored; after all, Legolas wore almost no armor when he was with the fellowship.

The woodland elves, I imagine, would have almost no armor on them when they fight, since they kill their enemies by ambushing them from trees. Is it possible however that the dwarves had archers with them? We know that Thorin handled a bow, and would it be possible that they had some in Dain’s army? After all, how did dwarves get their food? Certainly not by beating a deer to death with their axes. If they elves gave them any trouble with their arrows, I’m certain that the dwarves could get close enough and keep the elves occupied.

One more interesting point that I'd like to bring up. We know that the Laketown men and the woodland elves outnumbered the dwarves, but is it possible that the dwarves might have brought along some of their war machines?

[Gwathagor]

All things being equal, if the battle consisted only of hand-to-hand combat between the elves and the dwarves, the dwarves would undoubtedly win. However, I think the key advantage of crack-shot archers would give the elves the upper hand because of the long, open distance the dwarves would have to cover before reaching the elven army. The casualties inflicted by the elven archers upon the slow dwarves would only exaggerate the already existing differences in numbers between the two armies. In the ensuing hand-to-hand combat, I'm sure the dwarves would inflict very heavy casualties, but at that point the elves would be able to overwhelm the dwarves simply by virtue of having, by that point, more than twice as many soldiers as the dwarves. The dwarves would be surrounded and then overrun.

I emphasize again that the elves would doubtless incur very heavy casualties during the close combat phase.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

We are turning more to a tactical talk instead of the actuall topic: How many where in the battle

Before I return to this I would like to say a few thing about the tactics. . . Agincourt is not the best of examples, as the major problem for the French was the tactics or rather the fact that the heavily amoured nobility did not want to fight pessants armed with bows. (not much glory or gain in that)

Anyways even though dwarves are tougher in close combat than elves, pikes still make an excelent defence weapon and good for keeping foes at bay. . .together with a bunch of archers I think they would have the upper hand against the dwarves.

I think they where confident they would win, the question would have been how many casualties they where ready to accept.

Also I belive that the elves would have been armoured. . .as you said they normally fought from the safty of the trees, in the woods mobility and camuflage was key. If they knew they where going to the open, where there are plenty of unknown factors. . .surely they would wear armour.

Anyways back to the topic:

I always pictured the elves numbers being somewhere between 1000-2000, the men of laketown only a few hundreds. I cannot remember what the book said about the amount of orcs and wargs, but I always imagined them as being of same amount or maybe a bit larger.

But this is based on nothing, only loose memories, it has been years since I read the Hobbit.

[Gwathagor]

Agincourt has its limitations as an example, but it demonstrates well the potential of archers and pikes against heavy armor, even when vastly out-numbered. Which was the point I was making.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Agincourt has its limitations as an example, but it demonstrates well the potential of archers and pikes against heavy armor, even when vastly out-numbered. Which was the point I was making.

I got that and I do not dispute that pikes and archers can be a good combo against heavily armoured troops, but I thought it important to point out that it several important factors that decided the outcome of Agincourt. . . .

One could say that I was trying to present a more diverse picture of the events. . .that sounded fancy enough for my liking.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Also I belive that the elves would have been armoured. . .as you said they normally fought from the safty of the trees, in the woods mobility and camuflage was key. If they knew they where going to the open, where there are plenty of unknown factors. . .surely they would wear armour.

But the question is: do they have the armor. You can't just make it appear out of thin air, and I don't think that the Mirkwood elves ever fought out of their woods, since they had enough problems with Dol Goldur. Even if they did have armor I would imagine it would be light, made out of leather or something. That is hardly sufficient to stop a Dwarf's axe from killing you.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Hmm... well I don’t see how they could. The spear is not a weapon that is made for the close combat phase, seeing how you need some space to stab or to swing with it. Besides I doubt that this phase would occur since Dain’s main objective is to make it into the mountain. If the elves were so mighty shots why didn’t they storm Esgaroth while there were only the thirteen dwarves in there? Says quite a bit about the elves don’t it?

Soldiers are most effective when they have a cause to believe and fight for. What where the elves fight for? They were fighting for their king and his greed and want of jewels, not much of a cause. However, the dwarves were fighting to reclaim their long lost home; they were fighting for what was theirs. They had a cause to fight for, this would make them unconquerable in battle.

I don't know why on earth the elves would want to storm Esgaroth, that would make no sence at all. . . it makes more sence to talk about why they did not storm Erebor

I am quite sure that they did not want any casualties if it could be avoided, so why storm a fortified position? They could just starve them! I am also quite sure that the elves recognised Thorin's claim and so had wish to kill him or any of the dwarves, but wanted an agreement with them.

About spears: remember that the dwarves was the attackers and spears are excelent as a defence weapon.

and you simply cannot just create a rule about when soldiers are most effective. . .soldiers can also get carried away and do foolish things because they belive in the cause.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

But the question is: do they have the armor. You can't just make it appear out of thin air, and I don't think that the Mirkwood elves ever fought out of their woods, since they had enough problems with Dol Goldur. Even if they did have armor I would imagine it would be light, made out of leather or something. That is hardly sufficient to stop a Dwarf's axe from killing you.

Elves live for a long time. . .there was a time before Dol Guldur, where the enemy was elsewhere. To think that you would never engage in combat outside your own little green patch would be foolish and just plain weird. As far as I remember the elves of Doriath had armour and they seldome ventured out in the open. . .
Anyways the fact is that we are never told about elves who never used armour, it is the standard that elves have armour of some sort and therefor it would be an obvious thing to mention if they did not have any armour.

I would also like to add that quite heavy armour is seldom going to keep you alive after a direct blow, it is more likely to save you from minor injuries and so keep you in the fight longer.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Hmm... well I don’t see how they could. The spear is not a weapon that is made for the close combat phase, seeing how you need some space to stab or to swing with it.

The use of spear and pike, particularly when an army has the advantage of higher ground (as was the case of the Elves), is lethal in an en masse charge (as at the battle of Sempach, or with the Flemish bourgeois against French chivalry during the 14th century). It is noted by Tolkien that the Elves charged the Orcs twice with spear, to great effect. This, in tandem with hails of arrows, is a proven medieval strategy (far more effective than countless cavalry charges or with unmounted, heavily armored knights -- as was the French downfall at Crecy, Poitier and Agincourt during the 100 Year's War).

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Besides I doubt that this phase would occur since Dain’s main objective is to make it into the mountain. If the elves were so mighty shots why didn’t they storm Esgaroth while there were only the thirteen dwarves in there?

It was not the intent of the Elves and Men to slaughter the thirteen in Erebor, the text is quite clear in that regard.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

ays quite a bit about the elves don’t it?

Elvish restraint saved the situation from getting far uglier sooner (which would have led to chaos and an Orkish victory). The text supports that the Elves and Men had a decisive advantage against the Dwarves both numerically and from strategic positioning:

"Fools!" laughed Bard, "to come thus beneath the mountain's arm! They do not understand war above ground, whatever they may know of battle in the mines. There are many archers and spearmen now hidden in the rocks upon their right flank. Dwarf-mail may be good, but they will soon be hard put to it, Let us set on them now from both sides, before they are fully rested!"

But the ElvenKing said: "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot pass us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows."

The text shows the Dwarvish strength at 500, whereas Tolkien speaks of 1000 Elvish spearmen in the initial charge against the Orcs (and reserves for a second charge, plus countless Elvish archers, and an unquantified host of Men under Bard). In addition, the Elves and Men held the high ground and were assembled in the plain below (the classic pincer movement).

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

But the question is: do they have the armor. You can't just make it appear out of thin air, and I don't think that the Mirkwood elves ever fought out of their woods, since they had enough problems with Dol Goldur. Even if they did have armor I would imagine it would be light, made out of leather or something. That is hardly sufficient to stop a Dwarf's axe from killing you.

The Elves of Mirkwood fought under Oropher and Thranduil in the War of the Last Alliance (in Mordor), so yes, they do have experience fighting outside the forest (Elves being immortal and all). Plus they have a distinct height and reach advantage over the dwarves, particularly with spears. Add to this their renowned archery ability and the dwarves would be cut to little, hairy ribbons.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I never agreed to anything. That is a figment of your imagination.

I said: almost all of us! You keep telling me to read the book, how about you reading my post [correctly]!

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

All things being equal, if the battle consisted only of hand-to-hand combat between the elves and the dwarves, the dwarves would undoubtedly win.

This is what I was talking about, Morthoron! It's post 19.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Conjecture on your part. They were fully armed with spear, sword and bows. What makes you think the Dwarves spent much time supplying themselves?

I didn't say that the dwarves had more time and the elves didn't! I don't think either side had much time to gather supplies, only what they might need for an immediate battle. If if consisted of a siege the elves, and perhaps dwarves, would not be capable of lasting long.




I'm done with this discussion for a while so here is my analysis:

The dwarves attack the elves and hand to hand melee ensues shortly with the dwarves losing around a fifth of their overall strength to the elven arrows. The elves and men hold their own for awhile, but soon the dwarves push them back. Around 150-300 dwarves make it into the mountain and a long futile siege begins.

Have fun with it!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I said: almost all of us! You keep telling me to read the book, how about you reading my post [correctly]!

Groin, I am asking you to read the book because everything you have presented in this thread (save your one post regarding corslets) is based on your conjecture (with a highly anti-elf bias I might add). For me personally, it seems like you haven't read the passages regarding the battle for a while, and are content with relying on stereotypical characterizations from fantasy roleplaying. If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

The dwarves attack the elves and hand to hand melee ensues shortly with the dwarves losing around a fifth of their overall strength to the elven arrows. The elves and men hold their own for awhile, but soon the dwarves push them back. Around 150-300 dwarves make it into the mountain and a long futile siege begins.

Have fun with it!

Fascinating...sort of a fantasy within a fantasy.