The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-23-2008, 02:37 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
'Songs of power' would indeed be an interesting discussion topic, but I'm too busy with my paper on Middle-earth instruments this week to post about it...
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 08:18 AM   #2
Ibrīnišilpathānezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrīnišilpathānezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
It strikes me that a distinction is being made here that is not unlike the distinction Tolkien makes between "magic" as it is very commonly presented (that being some external power that is drawn upon through the use of rituals or devices) and the kind of "magic" Tolkien uses that is an internal power resulting from the nature of the being employing it. In his letters, Tolkien's references to "power" almost always describe it in dangerous terms; in L151, he says that possessiveness and rebellion against morality will "lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective." Power, in his mind (especially with a capital P), appears to relate closely to domination. Although he does not speak specifically of "might," when one considers many of his uses of it, it would appear (at least to me) that he is speaking of something more personal, of individual strength, as well as individual power. He makes an interesting point about the nature of power in an attempt to explain something about Tom Bombadil:

Quote:
The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, of beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom without consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.
Now, this is all subjective, since I can find nothing in which Tolkien discusses the difference between "might" and "power" (as he does discuss the difference between magia and goetia), and certainly, the two words are sometimes nearly synonymous. But as I see it, "might" is a quality of the individual, whether it be innate or learned; "power" is something acquired or bestowed, as dominion is acquired (either with kindness or by force) or granted (as Eru gave Manwe dominion as His regent in Arda, which was certainly His to give, as the Creator). One can be powerful but not mighty (for some reason, Eol comes to mind), or mighty but not powerful (one might apply this description to Nienna, or to Maedhros chained to the heights of Thangorodrim).

Okay, the brain is sputtering a bit, here, early morning after a long night. But there's a thought in there somewhere...
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 01:34 PM   #3
Gordis
Shade of Carn Dūm
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 431
Gordis is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Here is a quote where "might" clearly doesn't refer to "physical power" but more to "influence".

Quote:
"How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?"
"Nay," [Galadriel] said. "Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin's children I am the last. But my heart is still proud. What wrong did the golden house of Finarfin do that I should ask the pardon of the Valar, or be content with an isle in the sea whose native land was Aman the Blessed? Here I am mightier."- UT -"The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" ("The Elessar")
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2008, 05:38 PM   #4
Ibrīnišilpathānezel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Ibrīnišilpathānezel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Ibrīnišilpathānezel is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Which goes to show that "mighty" probably had no clear distinction from "power" or "influence," as Tolkien generally used it. But since this use is coming out of the mouth of a character rather than in the narration, one might argue that this is Galadriel's interpretation (or misinterpretation, as may be) of the word, if one wanted to press the issue. Personally, I think Tolkien did not have the same distinct definition of "might" as he did for "power." Of the latter, he went so far as to say that "'power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods" (letter 131), which to me implies that he gave a good deal of thought as to how he wanted to use the word. There is no such statement in reference to "mighty," which leaves it open to more liberal interpretation, I think.
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :)
Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill
Ibrīnišilpathānezel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 07:50 AM   #5
Bźthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bźthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
Bźthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bźthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bźthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bźthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Interesting replies here! I like Ibrin's distinction between innate talent and ability for mighty and learned or developed force of Will for Power. (We all know that Galadriel could be a bad girl at times. ) However, as Ibrin suggests, perhaps the very fact that Tolkien apparently never capitalises might or mighty as he does with power/Power, demonstrates that the word for him does not have the significant reverberations in his thought that power/Power does. (Yikes! a word Tolkien might not have niggled over?)

Now, I have it on some authority, but cannot speak this of my own, having not read The Lay of Leithian, and not owning the book to scurry away to verify the source, but, as I say, this authority of whom I speak says that therein Tolkien describes Daeron as 'the mightiest of the three [Elven musicians]' (the other two being Gelion and Maglor). Now, Daeron is associated with Luthian, so possibly his playing was what inspired her dancing. And we all know where her dancing led . . . .

Consequently here we might have an example of might and its inflexions used without reference to physical prowess. *

EDIT: *unless we take this to refer to the prestidigital prowess of the piper.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

Last edited by Bźthberry; 04-24-2008 at 09:22 AM.
Bźthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 03:01 PM   #6
The Might
Guard of the Citadel
 
The Might's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Might is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Silly question...

Look at my name and you will know what Might truly is!
__________________
“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
Delos B. McKown
The Might is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2008, 03:23 PM   #7
the phantom
Beloved Shadow
 
the phantom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Stadium
Posts: 5,971
the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.the phantom is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via MSN to the phantom
Eye

What, not who.

__________________
the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important.
the phantom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:01 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.