What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I would be inclined to think that, if Goldberry was known as the daughter of the "river woman," she was somehow a descendant of Uinen, whose "tresses are spread through all the waters of the world." If Melian, another Maia, could wed Thingol and have a daughter, why not the Lady of the Seas? I would wonder who the father of the River Daughter was, but the identity of her mother would seem quite plain to me. Of course, this would imply that Uinen was not faithful to her spouse, but given what was known of his tempestuous nature, I don't think I could be too hard on her for seeking even a fleeting moment of love akin to that between Melian and Thingol.

This does not sound bad as a variant, except for one point with which I must cathegorically disagree, and that's Uinen being unfaithful to her spouse. The main point is that I'd never have expected, or imagined, anything like that in Tolkien's works - as far as I know, there are no such cases mentioned anywhere in the books. Strangely, we have death, fading of the love or even turning it to hatred; we have also incest, but in neither case infidelity. Maybe with the exception of Aldarion (just metaphorically, though). Anyway, what I said - I find that unlikely and actually the more when thinking about Uinen, who, as far as we know her, is loving her husband to the point that she is able to live with him (this, for me, speaks for her being faithful to Ossë - if she had enough of his angriness, then she would have simply left him to storm as he wishes), she even calms him down when he almost destroys the land and under other occassions. This implies that she cares about him really deeply. So, if Goldberry were the daughter of Uinen, I would say she has to be also Ossë's daughter. However...

...what about this. I would say, if Goldberry were to be descended from Uinen, I would make her the granddaughter of Uinen, and not daughter; this way, the former problem would be solved and also the link to Ossë (whose furious nature does not go somehow with Goldberry) would be somewhat weakened. Also, the real daughter of Uinen could be some spirit more specifically linked to the rivers or river (one) or the rivers in NW Middle-Earth or something like that - and now even the words about "River-woman" would fit.

However, the ultimate question in the background is, are Ainur capable of having children with other Ainu? We know they do when it comes to mortals (Thingol), but with other Ainur, I wouldn't be so sure. At least in the published works there is nothing that would imply so. Then again, the question would be, if the offspring would have to be indeed "physical", as it was in Thingol and Melian's case, or some, like, "spiritual" offspring - note that in any case, the "child" won't be a "classic Ainu", as the Ainur were something created by Ilúvatar, where this one would be begotten - Lo! Indeed, a River-daughter.

So that would be my proposal when we come to the Ainur-origin option.

[Bêthberry]

I think I would have to chime in with Legate and say that unfaithfulness to a spouse would not be a realistic attribute for any of the characters in Middle-earth. It simply is not part of Tolkien's range of possibilities. After all, he has the elves marrying for life and seemingly able to have creative control over their sexual drives. And for all the gender distinctions and differences amongst the maiar they seem quite a-sexual. Infidelity is simply not a 'given' in Tolkien's universe.

Yet something sexual is going on in the original verses of ATB, where there does seem to be some sort of primal sexual scene played out. The suggestions of aggression, if not violence, are broadly given--sorry, don't have the books to hand and may come back once I can get at them. First I think it is Goldberry who taunts and attracts Tom and then it is Tom who somehow has to outwit her mother. (Memory maybe be a bit dim here.) There is also a slight suggestion that Tom's eventual taking of Goldberry could possibly not be entirely consensual. It is very different from the domestic scenes in LotR.

It is one thing to say that we should consider Goldberry just as she appears in LotR, but I think to posit parentage from the maia on that without taking any consideration of how she appears in ATB would be niggling a bit much with the Legendarium--niggling by overlooking. One doesn't have to agree with Hardgroves, in the link kindly provided by davem, in order to find his concept of how Tolkien tinkered with anomalies and errors very attractive.

Well, really must dash off now.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, if one is not willing to entertain the possibility of infidelity in Tolkien's subcreation (now, why did I know that this would be contested? ), there is the possibility of some other, unnamed (and previously unattached) Maia, of Ulmo's service, as a parent or grandparent of Goldberry's, rather than Uinen. I would consider this more likely, actually, all the way around, since we do know that the Maiar were vastly more numerous than the Valar, and more "available," so to speak, since their roles (and lives) within Ea are not as well-known as those of the Valar. Although I don't recall that Tolkien explicitly said that the Ainur do not reproduce among themselves, I believe this is strongly implied by the fact that early versions of his mythology have the Maiar as the children of the Valar, and in the later, more finished versions, this concept disappears completely. Only Luthien, the child of a Maia and an immortal incarnate, remains. This is given such prominence in Elvish lore, it is easy to believe that this is the ONLY such incident, and thus Luthien is the only child ever literally born of the Ainur. But given that Tolkien writes his books as if they are the histories and literature compiled by the inhabitants of his created world, there is always the possibility of stories unwritten, tales untold -- not to mention bias on the part of the "authors," who might tend to favor certain tales over others. Neither Tom nor Goldberry have the (apparent) historical prominence of Melian, Elwe, Luthien, or Beren, and thus there may be much of their story that is either unknown, or considered insufficiently interesting to publish. Although Tom is known to the Elves, he seems a greater part of the lore of the Hobbits (not surprising, given where he lives), and the Hobbits, being as unfond of "adventure" as they are, would likely know precious little about Tom's past, as well as his Lady's. The Elves (or at least the Elves who wrote the books we have seen) might simply have not been interested in Tom, because he does not appear to have done anything that might interest an Elvish writer. For a Hobbit, who enjoys more mundane song and dance and "nonsense," tales of Tom, real or imagined, might be much more appealing. (And this is not intended to denigrate Elvish writers, just an attempt to find an explanation for why so little is known, or was written, about Tom and Goldberry.)