Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[davem]

A digression...

We've had other threads exploring Tolkien's sources, so its probably not worth getting side-tracked too far into it here. My own feeling is that his 'sources' were almost entirely mythological (ie 'pagan'), though his treatment of them is often influenced by his own faith. For instance, the banner Arwen weaves for Aragorn -

The raven banner was also a standard used by the Norse Jarls of Orkney. According to the Orkneyinga Saga, it was made for Sigurd the Stout by his mother, a völva or sorceress. She told him that the banner would "bring victory to the man it's carried before, but death to the one who carries it." The saga describes the flag as "a finely made banner, very cleverly embroidered with the figure of a raven, and when the banner fluttered in the breeze, the raven seemed to be flying ahead." Sigurd's mother's prediction came true when, according to the sagas, all of the bearers of the standard met untimely ends. The "curse" of the banner ultimately fell on Jarl Sigurd himself at the Battle of Clontarf:

Earl Sigurd had a hard battle against Kerthialfad, and Kerthialfad came on so fast that he laid low all who were in the front rank, and he broke the array of Earl Sigurd right up to his banner, and slew the banner-bearer. Then he got another man to bear the banner, and there was again a hard fight. Kerthialfad smote this man too his death blow at once, and so on one after the other all who stood near him. Then Earl Sigurd called on Thorstein the son of Hall of Sida, to bear the banner, and Thorstein was just about to lift the banner, but then Asmund the White said, "Don't bear the banner! For all they who bear it get their death." "Hrafn the Red!" called out Earl Sigurd, "bear thou the banner." "Bear thine own devil thyself," answered Hrafn. Then the earl said, "`Tis fittest that the beggar should bear the bag;'" and with that he took the banner from the staff and put it under his cloak. A little after Asmund the White was slain, and then the earl was pierced through with a spear.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner

A 'raven' banner which brings victory to the man its carried before but death to the one who bears it is certainly reminiscent of the banner Arwen wove for Aragorn - it brought him victory, but its bearer (Halbarad) died on the Pelennor.

So, the banner Arwen weaves is not 'cursed' in the same way (as far as we know) as the raven banner woven by Jarl Sigurd's mother is, yet, I think its clear that the one iepisode is 'influenced' by the other. In the same way, I think (just as the entry into Edoras of Gandalf, et al, which we will see in the next episode, is influenced by the arrival of Beowulf & his thegns in the poem) Scyld's funeral is behind Boromir's. This is not about starting an argument between Christians & non-Christians, but about source analysis, & the 'echoes' which Tolkien is setting up. For any reader familiar with the literature Tolkien loved its difficult not to be reminded of them when reading his fiction. As I've said, I don't see Boromir's last words as a 'Confession' in the Catholic sense :

Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid." His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there. "They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them." He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again. "Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed." 'No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!" Boromir smiled. "Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn. But Boromir did not speak again.

though of course Tolkien may have done. He stated there is no overt references to 'religious' practices in the story (or something along those lines), but that the religious element has been absorbed into the story. So, those who perceive a Catholic/Christian dimension are perfectly entitled to do so as far as I'm concerned. This (for me at least) is simply about pointing up the sources Tolkien drew on, not arguing over the way individual readers interpret particular incidents. Of course, one can choose to interpret Boromir's final words as a 'confession' & request for absolution, but I'm not aware of a particular incident in a Biblical/Christian writing that could be cited as a 'source' for Boromir's death in the way that we can find clear Pagan/mythological/Saga sources for so many of the events in the story.

EDIT - its possible to argue that Tolkien's faith comes through in the way he uses some of his sources & gives the heroic 'ideal' a negative twist (Denethor's 'heathen' behaviour is a classic example, & is probably also based on accounts like those of Ibn Fadlan's about pagan Rus funeral practices

Ibn Fadlan describes the hygiene of the Rūsiyyah as disgusting (while also noting with some astonishment that they comb their hair every day) and considers them vulgar and unsophisticated. In that, his impressions contradict those of the Persian traveler Ibn Rustah. He also describes in great detail the funeral of one of their chieftains (a ship burial involving human sacrifice). Some scholars believe that it took place in the modern Balymer complex. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Fadlan[1]

Digression ends.... On to episode 7 tomorrow

[ArathornJax]

Ok, my last point on this then on to the next section.

Why I said that Boromir's funeral could be argued not to be pagan is because of my knowledge of Viking/Norse burial customs among other things.

My point comes down to the notion of Norse paganism. Did the Norse use ships to bury their dead? Yes, usually great chieftons, members of the aristocracy or kings who had the wherewithal to afford this burial. Ships were not cheap and they were labor intensive, and more often than not were left to the heirs. Your average warrior was not buried in a ship but in a mound (and it could have a ship outline like at Lindholm Hoje in Jutland). Villagers were usually buried in mounds in a communal graveyard of their village. Local farmers were usually buried near their farms and aristocracy near their dwellings so remaining family and descendants could maintain contact with their ancestors.

Goods were provided to the dead, usually based on occupation. If you were a merchant, scales were included as well as other items you did in daily life. A warrior would also be buried with their shield (or shields), sword, ax, spear and any other weapon they used. In all cases some mode of transportation was buried with the deceased, a wagon (especially for wealthy women in Denmark), horse(s), ox(en) or cow/cattle. A method of transportation was given because the Norse believed that to get to the afterlife was a journey, and transportation would be needed. Food was also buried (based on the season on the year), and other items that the deceased would need in their journey to the afterlife, or for their stay in Hel which was rather boring.

The notion that all or many Norse were buried in ships or even in ship mounds is false. More common than not, most were simply buried in mounds. In terms of cremation and having that done in a ship that is by far more common with the Swedes (those Viking from that geographic area) then with the Danes or Norwegian Vikings. Ibn Fadhlan gives the best description of a Viking cremation with a longship. Also, it depends on the era of history on whether cremation was used. During the Roman period of history, cremation was used very frequently in all regions of Scandinavia. During the Viking period of 700 to 1100 C.E. burial methods and rituals depended on geographic area and local traditions and customs.

So based on this, what IS pagan about Boromir's death? The use of a boat is usually considered, and I can accept it (to a point). However, I do feel that there is a valid argument that in Norse/pagan culture, the boat would have been used to transport Boromir to the afterlife. In LOTR there is no mention that men needed transportation to wherever men go, beyond the Halls of Mandos, or a belief by the people of Gondor in such a practice particularly. The kings of Gondor and the Stewards were laid in tombs in Minis Tirith, and Tolkien in an interview said they are more like the Egyptians in Gondor in how they deal with their dead (grand tombs etc). When Theoden is slain, Snowmane is buried on the Field of the Pelannor and not with Theoden. Theoden himself comes the closest in my mind to a true Norse or pagan burial where he is "laid in a house of stone with his arms and many other fair things he had possessed, and a mound was raised over him." It is possible then to say that perhaps the men of Middle Earth did not have the belief of needing transportation and that is why it is missing. This though would also support my notion that this is not a pagan burial but one of necessity.

Thus though using a boat may be considered a pagan symbol, I feel it can be argued that in this case, it is not. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli used the boat for ease, and so that Boromir's body would not be despoiled. Boromir was laid in the boat with his weapons and personal items. Is that Norse or pagan influenced? I could agree that it is. Overall though, I just feel that Boromir's funeral is one of ease/necessity for the 3 hunters who were pressed for time. They did their best to honor their companion, which is heroic. Tom Shippey has pointed out, it is that heroic nobility that linked myth with history and Christianity which Tolkien loved.

So in the end, I think any reader can determine what they want, whether there are elements of a "last rites" in Boromirs confession to Aragorn, or if there are pagan or Norse rites in his funeral. For me, it may have some pagan and some Christian elements, but it is really a funeral of necessity and done in a way that is heroic in honoring their fallen comrade. I look forward to our "new" discussion this week as we begin moving toward Isengard and Ilithien.

[davem]

I'm not going to be able to do episode 7 today as I promised - me & the missus are too busy . And to be honest it will probably be 2 or 3 days before we can get round to it, as we have the in-laws turning up tomorrow for a visit.....

So, you'll have to wait for my intro ..... or, if anyone wants to volunteer themselves & start off the discussion for this one (I doubt you could do worse than me....) please go ahead & we'll jump in later.

This one should be interesting as it has the first big battle (how well does it work on radio - & could it have been done differently? Its also our introduction proper to the court of Edoras. This is one of my favourite parts of both the book & this adaptation - Eowyn is a fantastic creation, a potential Aethelflaed - but would Tolkien ever have gone so far as to have a queen of Rohan ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethelflaed

[ArathornJax]

Sorry I am almost done listening to this week's session and am behind because of it being end of term and I am trying to get finals and other stuff in prior to the deadline. Anyway, if no one else posts a review by tomorrow when I have more time, then I'll start it off.

[ArathornJax]

Transcript at http://www.tolkienradio.com/goldenhall.html

davem, hope this ok and I'm sure it won't be up to your professional level but I'll give it a shot! Also, hope the time with the in-laws went well, and that you and the wife enjoyed your time with them and together.

This episode begins with the the Ent Moot and their decision to go to war. Merry and Pippin are impatient with the time the Ents are taking prior to the decision being made. The Ents decision is announced by a loud song after Treebeard announces to Merry and Pippin that this could be the last march of the Ents.
I really love Treebeard and Stephen Thorne does an excellent job in conveying an image of an Ent vocally. His voice is deep and loud, while soft and firm at other times.
I know others will disagree and that is fine, but I'm not a fan of the Ents song. I would have preferred a chant instead of a song. Not sure why, but that is just me and my impression, and I've always felt that way.

I really enjoyed the scene at the Golden Hall. I thought the scene at the gate with the laying of the weapons at the doorway really was well done. I liked the interaction of Gimli and Aragorn and Gimli's willingness to follow Aragorn's lead here. I think this contrasts nicely with the scene in the previous episode where the three chasers meet Eomer and Gimli and Legolas speak up against Eomer and his ignorance. Here Aragorn has some arragance and is admonished by Gandalf to do the right thing to which Aragorn does and Gimli follows suit. Not sure if this was on purpose in preparing the script, but it shows a side of these friends and companions that I think is nicely done.

The interplay now between Wormtongue and Gandalf is also very enjoyable. I feel that Paul Brooke does an excellent job in bringing Wormtongue to life and for me, I enjoy his interaction even more than the movie. I also like that in this scene more time is taken to show the control/influence of Wormtongue over Theoden, with Theoden not even realizing it, though apparently still in control of his facilities.

The interaction of Gandalf with Theoden now shows to me a great example of how Gandalf is able to fulfill his task by sparking hope in the people of Middle Earth, specifically here with Theoden.

There is A LOT in the episode that I enjoy, and one that I have to mention here is the transitions between various scenes. The use of the language in the script like here where Gandalf says to Theoden that he looks to Mordor for our despair, and then hints that also that way lies the hope. Then the narrator comes in and the scene switches to Frodo and Sam. The transitions are smooth and I think really help to eliminate confusion for those who may not be die hard fans.

A personal note here. I had my 14 (well, on Tuesday coming) year old son with me, and he decided that though Andy Serkis does and excellent job, he feels that Peter W. here has to be considered an equal performance. I'm sure that will generate a comment or two, but I agree with my son on this.

Ian Holm does an excellent job of bringing out Frodo's despair in the fact that if they get the job done, there won't be a need for food or anything. I think Ian just does a tremendous job with Frodo from this point (well, from the Breaking of the Fellowship on; well, ok, he does a top notch job for the entire series, but I really think we see a change in the character as brought out by Ian Holm from the Breaking of the Fellowship on in terms of his inflections, his level of his voice, and how he portrays the character from here on out) on and we can really hear the change which brings about a visual image as well. How I see Frodo at the beginning and how I am seeing him now is really quite different and I think that is due to how Ian Holm voices/acts out the character.

I also like that as we go back to Theoden, that the script takes a good chunk of time and gives it to Theoden and company, while Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli though playing significant roles, don't overwelm the new characters. Guess I am saying that I really like the balance done in the scene.

There is so much in this episode I could be writing all night, but I am literally exhausted and will just touch on a few points. I would hope others would touch on things that I have just brushed over and not discussed, or not done justice.

The interplay between Aragorn and the Orc foreshadows what is to come and I liked that. It allows the listener to anticipate what is coming, to infer and that often causes increase excitement and desire to continue to listen. I also like that it is Erkenbrand that arrives and not Eomer, and that Eomer retreating with Gimli to the caves is so important to me because it shows to me (in a listener/reader response mode) how much Gimli is able to get past slights (intended or not) and work with those he needs and eventually develops friendships. I think this is true of Legolas and is also true of Eomer. I enjoy that in this adaptation that bantering and comradeship was included as I think it is something important for the listener to understand.

Like I said, excuse my spelling errors, and the facts that my thoughts are 1. my thoughts and 2. done with about 12 hours of sleep over the last 3 days (I am done after 12:30p.m. tomorrow and get rest and recuperate prior to doing it again next term).

Cheers!

AJ

[Mithalwen]

I constructed a faily substantial reply to this and teh computer swallowed it - honest ... I have to go now and probably won't be online tomorrow since I have a family thing so ... can we have a few days grace? I promise I will get a reconstructed and maybe improved post up on Monday?

Thank you....

[davem]

We're hopefully going to get around to listening to this one tomorrow. I hope everyone is ok with leaving Ep. 8 till next week?

Thanks to Arathornjax for his brilliant intro, btw.....some very good points to start us off.