WWXLV: The Fellowship of Saruman

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

For the way Halbarad seems to try at the same time both make friends with me while with his other hand trying to spread suspicion of me when there seems to be some general distrust looks very dubious indeed.

"I asked for your opinion in order to judge you, not to flatter you, Bombadil."

[Nogrod]

"Ahh... I'm too old to remember or pay heed to that kind of a thing... what was it? Flattery? No. I mean from the very beginning you have walked the line trying to look friendly and even trusting at times but everytime there have been suspicions raised against me you've been more than happy to re-cite them. I know I'm innocent and thence the traitors know it too. They'd love to see old Tom gone. That much I know even if I haven't a good track-record this time. But just look at it the other way around. On the first Day I might have brought you dear Halbarad even with master Gandalf, on the second Day I could have committed a suicide. So do you still say I should have acted differently?"

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Galadriel sat patiently and waited for Tom to finnish and when he did, her answer fell quickly.

"Yes Radagast indeed defended me, but is it no wonder? I spoke kindly of Radagast. . .as a traitor would you not grap the hand of an inoccent when it is streched out to you? Lets not forget that Radagast was not the only one who defended me Lobelia did as well, or rather she attacked the obscure grounds on which some accused me. My heart greatly desires that you are still true to the cause, but I your words have been too predictable.

Yes I have been wrong, but do not try to twist it around and use it as an argument against supporting my sugestion of sending you away!

I would never have voted for Radagast and I was willing to vote for Eomer, but did you not vote for both Lobelia and Mithrandir? Have you not been just as wrong as I?

The fact that you choose to use this in your argument worries me greatly."

EDIT: Cross Posted With Tom Bombadil and inserted a "me"

[Nogrod]

"Oh my lady, have I been wrong? Yes, in a way I have been. But unlike you who have voted nice and early so as not to be scrutinised I have stood there at the last hour. Sadly the chances given to me on these two Days have been dreadful (look what actually happened or just check what I told to Halbarad a moment ago if you're forgotten it).

Just tell me, anyone, what you would have done with that kind of choices I faced that would with your criteria not look suspicious? I mean aren't you just saying X is suspicious where anything someone does in a situation that he has not himself produced will be categorically deemed suspicious? And if that is the case shouldn't we turn our eyes to those who specifically try to avoid any situations where they might be looked like that eg. those voting safely early, spreading the vote so as not to be decisive etc.?

And do not be lazy my dear friends either... Go through what has been said and do not talk nonsense. Not doing that is the way the traitors win. If you care to go through what people have said you can disregard the ignorant or malicious misjudgements which so many people like to just pass forwards as it's easy to cling into something someone just said but remembering and thinking is hard work. Of course, if you're not that interested in following the Council's decision then so be it. I can't force you all to think the best for yourselves. And in the end it's a Ring that affects folks like you and the world of yours, not mine. So as you wish..."

Tom seemed frustrated but also a bit tired. He pulled his hat over his eyes to take a nap and talked or moved no more.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Now it was Galadriel's turn to feel frustrated and replied Tom just before he laid down to sleep.
"So it is a sign of innocence to save ones vote, to let other run the show instead of shaping it one self? Also lets not forget that when you wait you have the lovely chance of saving your own or a friends neck. I am not saying that I suspect people who save their votes, all I am doing is pointing out that these things can be interpritated in what way fits you best"

[Meneltarmacil]

Actually, to be honest, I've just gone over what Halbarad and Galadriel have done thus far, and have discovered that neither one seems extremely suspicious. Much as I distrust arrogant, self-proclaimed "wise" Elves and don't particularly care for the Dunedain either, neither of them has done anything that deserves exile.

Interestingly, Tom Bombadil called Halbarad suspicious for not contributing much to the discussion. This was after the Ranger had already made the point that Tom's singing could be used to confuse discussion. He's been making arguments, so how is he not contributing to the discussion?

Much as I'd like to move away from my old way of relentlessly attacking a single target, Tom just keeps coming back in my mind... not that getting rid of that annoying singing wouldn't be a good thing, as it gives me a nasty headache.

*angrily drops a large rock down a well*

*crashing sounds*

*RRRROOOOAAAARRRR*

Um, oops?

[Thinlómien]

"Now, I have long pondered Radagast's relations with us who still remain... now hear this. Let me pose a few questions and then answer them.

What did Radagast say of Uglúk?
He repeatedly (#17, #32, #38, #132) mentioned that he did not mind his being in the fellowship because he respected Curunir's wisdom. He also mentioned having some concern about the Uruk (#38) and later (#132) questioned his vote against Iarwain and said that it troubles him, but he will wait until the Orc comes back and explains, although it won't probably happen until after the next collision.

What did he say about Iarwain?
He first defended his rhymes (#17) saying there's no malice in them. Later he defended him again (#38) and noted that everybody were very suspicious of Iarwain, which, in my opinion, was not true. When we had come from from Caradhras (#114), he said that the old fellow's actions were odd, but he did not actually suspect him. Radagast to Iarwain's request and explained that most people find Iarwain's rhymes confusing and also explained his kindness (#132).

What did he say about me, Gildor Inglorion?
He said he respected me and agreed with me that we should not make rash decisions (#32). Later, he agreed with me again (#114), this time on the possible reasons behind Elladan's death. He also called my reasoning steady (#132). He elaborated my point to Éomer, but actually misinterpreted it (#164).

What did he say of Elrohir?
He supported his words about keeping together (#32). He also asked him to give reasons for his vote in Eregion (#123), seconding Éomer there. But later, after stating he had grown concerned about him, he dismissed the whole matter now that Elrohir "is willing to -- concentrate on any other more rational choices". When Iarwain mentioned sending Elrohir home, Radagast said (#145): "It is not so much unhelpful as Elrohir said himself earlier that his thoughts would be few after the event of such a thing and that he needed time. If he wished to return home he might say more on this, but I think it pity-seeking of others to force words into his mouth." Then he agreed with Iarwain about Elrohir (what did Iarwain actually say evades my mind at the moment) and voted him (#164).

What did he say about Halbarad?
He answered his question about trust (#38). He called him enigma in others' eyes and said he seems honest and reserved to him (#132).

What of Galadriel then?
He agreed with Dáin that it would be good to hear more of her (#42). He also mentioned her when talking about Halbarad and said he understands her vote and would like to hear more of her (#132). Later yesterday (#164) he said "Voting for Galadriel does not seem to be the quickest way of flushing out traitors, if that is what voting for her is to acomplish. Unless the goal is to just send her home without getting any information from her, but to me that seems a waste of good judgement."

What did he say of Théodred?
He defended himself against Théodred's suspicions and said that the Rohir is starting to sound like Elrohir in Eregion(#132). He also said his "immediate concern" is troubling and considered voting him but decided against it (#164).

As far as I see, he did not mention Dáin at all."

Gildor paused, giving the other time to think about what he had said and himself time for drinking water from his waterskin. Then he continued:

"What did others say of Radagast then?

What did Iarwain say?
He said Elladan might be trying to make Radagast look suspicious (#34). When accusing Elladan, he mentioned Radagast's case to be out of the blue and slightly defended him (#78). When he went away (#125), he asked Radagast to fill him in with the day's discussion. When he had come back (#128), he said that Radagast was over-friendly and thus odd. In the last moments of yesterday (#150) he says: "Wake up Radagast my friend! We have no time to this kind of thing anymore. Are you trying to force me to stand up against you after I have voted my dearest friend and your kin out? Try to be more constructive - or are you not interested? Because the traitors are safe at the moment so it's just fine whoever of the top-candidates right now get sent away and you don't feel any urgency to bring in your own thoughts about the vote?" he repeated this a while later (#162) by saying: "Radagast goes for straw-picking with roles and character-emotions at the last minutes when we should do something else. So why? Because everything's alright to him? 'nuff said?"

What did Halbarad say about him?
He questioned Radagast's words about trust and asked who he would trust (#36).

What did Dáin say about him?
He mentioned him among the wise of the company (#40). Later (#76) he mentioned that the wizard agreed with him about Lobelia's behaviour. Near the gates of Moria he said "Radagast, I have no opinion of yet, as Theodred said we seem to have passed him entirely in our calculations. Let me examine his words before I offer further incite on him."

And what did Galadriel say?
She first mentioned him when we had descended from Caradhras and in her first speech she declared that she had no reason to doubt his allegiance (#92).

Or Théodred?
He noted that Radagast had not voted in Eregion (#94). Later, he noticed that "Radagast had thrown suspicions toward others, but had been overlooked by the masses". Which is a good point, if you ask me, although Radagast had actually been defending people more than attacking them. At the same moment, Théodred hoped that people would pay more attention to Radagast.

What did I, Gildor Inglorion say?
I first talked about him on our way from Caradhras to Moria (#121) and said these words, that look so bitter now: "His presence is so kind and honest that it is impossible to think bad of him. If he's a traitor, he's the foulest of them all." Later (#140) I questioned Éomer's way of suspecting Radagast.

Uglúk did not mention him at all."

Gildor made a pause again, but this time he did not drink from the waterskin, but hummed a hymn to Elbereth in order to gather his thoughts.

"Based only on this, I would say the following things. Based on this, Théodred looks quite innocent. Everybody else could be either way.

My own and Uglúk's relations to the evil wizard look the worst to me. I will not waste my time on dwelling my own misguided opinions and Radagast's eagerness to support me, but instead I will say a few words about the Orc. Radagast's willingness to let Uglúk be regardless of his questionable vote seems slightly incriminating. What confuses me is his repeated words about Curunir's wisdom concerning Uglúk. At first it looks like careless non-action-based defense of a companion, but would he really do it this visibly? Isn't he overdoing it? Also, the fact that Uglúk did not mention him at all might speak for a connection between the two.

Radagast and Iarwain's relations are very troubling. Their first dance of supporting and suspecting each other looks rather suspicious, but I would like to repeat that I find it unlikely that Iarwain would have spotlighted (Elbereth forgive me for using such a word) Radagast in the manner he did yesterday when Radagast was rather safe, if they indeed were comrades in treachery.

Radagast and Galadriel's relations would be quite incriminating (especially suspicious was Galadriel's declaration of the wizard's innocence), but what makes me hesitate is Radagast's repeated questioning of where Galadriel is. It would be odd if he would wonder that aloud of a partner in crime and do it more than once.

As for Radagast and Elrohir, it looks quite bad - except for Radagast's vote. Would he have voted to banish his companion at a situation like that? It would have been risky but he might even have done that...

And Radagast's relations to Dáin and Halbarad do not tell me anything..."

[Thinlómien]

Gildor frowned. "What is this silence?" he said, almost bewildered, "No one has said anything in nine hours!"

[McCaber]

Elrohir finally broke his long silence.

"I am sorry that I have not spoken much on this journey, for much of my time has not been my own to spend.

To set this straight: On the first stage of the journey, I voted for the orc because I was running out of time and had no real leads. I defaulted to racism, my brother died, I rethought my positions. Ugluk, I truly am sorry for that first vote. I acted through hatred, which can only lead to breaking this fellowship further. You might not believe me, but it is so."

He turned to glance back at the entrance to the chamber.

"It seems that time is running short, and yet I still have much to say. But I shall close my thought with this: A traitor I might have been, but I am not a Kinslayer."

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by McCaber

Elrohir finally broke his long silence.

"I am sorry that I have not spoken much on this journey, for much of my time has not been my own to spend.

To set this straight: On the first stage of the journey, I voted for the orc because I was running out of time and had no real leads. I defaulted to racism, my brother died, I rethought my positions. Ugluk, I truly am sorry for that first vote. I acted through hatred, which can only lead to breaking this fellowship further. You might not believe me, but it is so."

He turned to glance back at the entrance to the chamber.

"It seems that time is running short, and yet I still have much to say. But I shall close my thought with this: A traitor I might have been, but I am not a Kinslayer."

"Alas, Elrohir, you have complicated matters. I was intending to vote for you, but if your repentance is as sincere as it seems, how can I? My instinctive reaction is that this is indeed genuine, and now I am forced to give more serious thought to Bombadil and Galadriel. To be honest, I almost wish that you had said nothing at all, as you were the straightforward, obvious vote for me.

"However, you may be simply telling me what I want to hear, so I am not going to dismiss you just yet. On the contrary, I am going to continue to weigh you against the other candidates for the present. It is too soon following your apparent repentance to be certain one way or the other."

[McCaber]

"So it seems that either Halbarad or myself is a traitor in the eyes of the fellowship.

After looking back on the ranger's words, I can only say that he looks treacherous, as does fair Gildor. I will have to devote more thoughts to this matter."