Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have only heard the first side of this one and amazingly nearly four chapters are covered. Assuming that the original episodes correspond nearly with the cassette sides this would have been a Frodo-free episode. Obviously that tallies with the book but quite brave I would have thought for the adaptation to omit him for a week.

I've been off the forum for some while and have been playing catch-up. I used to get e-mails telling me when a new posting appeared, but, for some reason, they've stopped...

Anyway, on the subject of Frodo's absence: this is one of the effects of the re-editing of the series from 26 half-hours to 13 one hours. I wasn't involved in or consulted about this process, but I imagine that a couple of Frodo scenes would have been shifted from one half hour to the next so that the scenes could run longer in the hour-format.

I really wish it were possible for people to listen in the original format, but alas...

[Brian Sibley]

"Always be careful, my boy, what you make up. Life's more full of things made up on the Spur of the Moment than most people realise. Beware of the Spur of the Moment. It may turn & rend you." Frank Baker: 'Miss Hargreaves'.

Dave - Nice to see you quoting Miss H!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Anyway, on the subject of Frodo's absence: this is one of the effects of the re-editing of the series from 26 half-hours to 13 one hours. I wasn't involved in or consulted about this process, but I imagine that a couple of Frodo scenes would have been shifted from one half hour to the next so that the scenes could run longer in the hour-format.

I really wish it were possible for people to listen in the original format, but alas...

My memory is so hazy regarding the original broadcasts - I only managed to tape teh last three episodes & I've long since lost the tapes . Considering the number of times I've listened to this version I was quite surprised how long it took before we got to Frodo & Sam - not quite as long as the book, but it started to feel that way! I did like the longer scenes with Frodo/Sam/Gollum though. I know the episodes were re-edited again when the film was released to bring them more in line with the books - we're they actually edited to match the books, with the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli/Merry & Pippin storyline complete & then the Frodo/Sam/Gollum storyline following on? I wouldn't mind hearing it done that way.

"Always be careful, my boy, what you make up. Life's more full of things made up on the Spur of the Moment than most people realise. Beware of the Spur of the Moment. It may turn & rend you." Frank Baker: 'Miss Hargreaves'.

Dave - Nice to see you quoting Miss H!

Well, you put me onto that one (via the Church House recording). I'd love to hear your adaptation - though I bet it was never made available... don't want to risk Esty's ire by taking the thread off topic, but I'm wondering if Tolkien read Miss H. Its certainly the kind of thing that he was interested in (cf Flieger's 'A Question of Time') & the whole idea of the power of imagination changing reality has echoes in his time travel writings (Notion Club Papers especially). I think the situation as regards getting hold of the novel is about as bad as you indicated when you spoke 20 odd years ago - I got a second hand copy from the limited edition of 300 which came out a few years back & it cost me £30 - well worth the money though. I recomend the book wholeheartedly, btw.

And for anyone who wants to know more about the book, here's a nice essay by Brian http://www.frankbaker.co.uk/sibley.htm

[Estelyn Telcontar]

OK, I would like to join in on the discussion, as I do have some time to listen to the recordings, but I'm having trouble figuring out where the episodes you number start and stop - my box has 10 CDs, but obviously episode 6 and CD 6 are not the same, as I listened to the latter and it's way ahead of what you're discussing here. Is this an idiosyncracy of the German edition I'm using, or is there some way for me to coordinate my recordings with yours?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

OK, I would like to join in on the discussion, as I do have some time to listen to the recordings, but I'm having trouble figuring out where the episodes you number start and stop - my box has 10 CDs, but obviously episode 6 and CD 6 are not the same, as I listened to the latter and it's way ahead of what you're discussing here. Is this an idiosyncracy of the German edition I'm using, or is there some way for me to coordinate my recordings with yours?

Hmmm.. I don't know how many versions of this adaptation there are.....

The one Mith, Arathornjax, Hookbill & I are using is the 13 episode series, re-edited from the original 26 episodes (which was later re-re-edited into a slightly different form in response to the Jackson movies), so we're using the 'middle' one. Check the transcripts I've been linking to at the start of my introductions for each episode.

[Mithalwen]

I believe they were edited to correspond more closely with the book sequence. But otherwise 26 tape sides to 10 cds would mean surely that you should look at the end of 4 and beginning of 5.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by davem

Hmmm.. I don't know how many versions of this adaptation there are.....

The one Mith, Arathornjax, Hookbill & I are using is the 13 episode series, re-edited from the original 26 episodes (which was later re-re-edited into a slightly different form in response to the Jackson movies), so we're using the 'middle' one. Check the transcripts I've been linking to at the start of my introductions for each episode.

Someone ought to try and work out the differences - even I don't know! The original 26 episode version was re-edited into 13 hours although this only affected the episodes following the Breaking of the Fellowship until Mount Doom.

As I've said, I wasn't involved in that process - in fact, I don't think I was even told it was going to happen. The producer had pretty much got tired of me - I was constantly picking away about things that weren't right during recording until she finally lost patience! I think that the short scenes cutting back and forth between Frodo, Sam and Gollum and the Others were lumped together into longer scenes. I have read that new linking narration was added, if so then Michael Bakewell must have written it; certainly I wasn't asked!

When the films came out, the BBC wanted to issue the series in three 'volumes' but of course this is difficult, since chronologically events in TTT overlap with events in TROTK. I think very little was changed for this new release, other than the fact that the openings and closings were dispensed with altogether - hence the difficulty people with this recording have of knowing where one episode (under the old ordering) begins and ends.

For this release I was asked to write new head- and tail-pieces for Ian Holm which I did and, on the day or recording, they realised they had forgotten to book an announcer to read the new opening and closing announcements to each of the three volumes, so I read them!

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Brian Sibley

Anyway, on the subject of Frodo's absence: this is one of the effects of the re-editing of the series from 26 half-hours to 13 one hours. I wasn't involved in or consulted about this process, but I imagine that a couple of Frodo scenes would have been shifted from one half hour to the next so that the scenes could run longer in the hour-format.

I really wish it were possible for people to listen in the original format, but alas...

That is interesting - since side ends so often correspond with a bit of a cliff hanger I assumend that only the joins were amended. One thing I meant to ask was if you always knew that the series recordings would to the public sold or if this is a happy byproduct of BBC enterprises. I remember coveting the music casette and my mother claiming nothing had taking her so much trouble as obtaining it for me for Christmas. I don't remember the full recording being advertised then (I heard the 13 episode version so I suppose this was 82).

Much as I love the music recording, I do like the way the actors do their own songs in the actual dramatisation. Treebeard and Sam are so well cast but both actors sing their songs very well - were you looking specifically for actors who could sing or would you have dubbed in singers had it been necessary?

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That is interesting - since side ends so often correspond with a bit of a cliff hanger I assumend that only the joins were amended. One thing I meant to ask was if you always knew that the series recordings would to the public sold or if this is a happy byproduct of BBC enterprises.

It was never envisaged that the series would be sold commercially, that was a by-product of its success.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I remember coveting the music casette and my mother claiming nothing had taking her so much trouble as obtaining it for me for Christmas. I don't remember the full recording being advertised then (I heard the 13 episode version so I suppose this was 82).

It was also available as an LP. Stephen Oliver didn't want to use the actors' versions because they weren't good enough singers (a mistake in my opinion) so the disc was recorded later using professional singers (like Oz Clark) and with much of the incidental music extended, such as the Shadowfax theme. The boy soprano's voice had broken in the interim, so his brother sang those songs instead.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Much as I love the music recording, I do like the way the actors do their own songs in the actual dramatisation. Treebeard and Sam are so well cast but both actors sing their songs very well - were you looking specifically for actors who could sing or would you have dubbed in singers had it been necessary?

I agree about the actor's performances of the songs. But, yes, we were aware that some of the characters would have to sing and the fact that they could was a bonus. I doubt they would ever have been dubbed - Ian Holm couldn't sing, for example, so the 'Man in the Moon' song was spoken instead.

[Mithalwen]

Ah so I wasn't hallucinating when I thought that the singer was sometimes listed as Jeremy Vine. Matthew Vine is now quite well known as a tenor but I assume Jeremy isn't THAT Jeremy Vine.. though I suppose he would be the right age... !

Well I suppose composers want different things from a performance but at least the actors voices were kept for the broadcasts. Although Oz Clark sings Sam's songs without too much embellishment, the fact that it is clearly Bill Nighy in the broadcast makes them so much more powerful emotionally and of course is far more natural.

[Brian Sibley]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Ah so I wasn't hallucinating when I thought that the singer was sometimes listed as Jeremy Vine. Matthew Vine is now quite well known as a tenor but I assume Jeremy isn't THAT Jeremy Vine.. though I suppose he would be the right age... !

Actually he was - or is - THAT Jeremy Vine!! The very same...

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well I suppose composers want different things from a performance but at least the actors voices were kept for the broadcasts. Although Oz Clark sings Sam's songs without too much embellishment, the fact that it is clearly Bill Nighy in the broadcast makes them so much more powerful emotionally and of course is far more natural.

Clark sang on the broadcasts - performing the extended lay of Theoden and the Ride of the Rohirrim. His recording of Sam's songs was, as I say, made later.

I think Stephen was conscious of creating a, literal, 'record' of his compositions and so wanted them to be performed 'professionally' for posterity. Bill was far more emotional and involved to my mind and I always thought people would rather have had the original cast. However, at least the recording allowed us to have longer versions of the various themes than were ever heard in the series.

[Mithalwen]

I have been pondering that for years - he cropped up in the Diocesan newsletter
years ago for some reason - maybe involved in Christian Aid - so it didn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility that he might have been a chorister. But it was never mentioned in any bigraphical articles I read so I more or less gave up the notion.

Wow...

[Mithalwen]

Before the discussion moves on without me tomorrow, there are a couple of things I would like to add. Firstly that while Treebeard's first song is part of the plot, his second "When spring unfolds the beechen leaf" gives a hint of an unexplored vista as far as the adaptation is concerned. Very clever to please the book devotees by acknowledging the Entwives without slowing the action by talking about them. The hobbit / treebeard scenes also give great proof of what can be done with the voice alone. I don't know whether any "magic" was worked but it is just so clear that Treebeard is vastly older and bigger than the hobbits - who sound much more boyish by comparison (whereas their voices sound merely young with the other hobbits).

To go back to the death and funeral of Boromir, I don't want to start an argument but given that Tolkien was both a devout Catholic and extremely proud of his Viking heritage (ref Donald Swann's intro to "The Road goes ever on" we should not be suprised that it is possible to identify elements of both.

Boromir has the opportunity to make a "good death", he confesses and asks for forgiveness - and is reassured by Aragorn. I believe the Catholic church prefers burial to other methods of disposal of bodies but the English are a seafaring nation and sea burial has often been a necessity and is still a choice and perfectly acceptable to the Anglican church (one of the designated sea burial grounds is off the Isle Wight and you can see them leave, robed vicar and all, from our local jetty). Many others have their ashes scattered on the water so I would contest that it is not part of the Christian tradition. However Boromir's funeral is clearly Viking.

Much of Tolkiens creation can be seen as an attempt to reconcile his Catholic beliefs with his personal and professional interest in Norse culture and mythology. Aspects of both can be found; those with a particular interest will pick up o their side more, as someone at Oxonmoot 06 said that the Catholics saw hints of the final victory, pagans the long defeat. Neither side is going to get a knockout blow and trying for a points victory can be tiresome for the disinterested (nb I use disinterested NOT uninterested).

Before I digress totally in to something that belongs in books, I do think the manner of Boromir's death and funeral is significant because we will have the later contrasts of Theoden and Denethor's. The latter is specifically described as heathen in the books, whereas the former is another semi-Viking style since the interment in a barrow is not so far from a ship burial.

Boromir is also in his own way "taking ship" and passing into the west. The sea is so important to the stories of ME and to Tolkien (I think I have a thread coming on) that this can not be without significance. Think of Aragorn's words "Boromir has taken his road" a road may be on sea as well as land (cf the Straight Road).
The elements also have significance I think - dwarves lay their dead in stone, the orcs are consigned to ashes, elves go west .. not unfitting that one of good Numenorean blood is returned to the sea.

Finally the funeral boat is a practical solution. There are several references to disposing differently of friend and foe in the books and one in this episode - the burning of the orcs. There is the strong and recognisable desire to give a comrade a "decent" if not Christian ) burial. This was not possible so they commend him to the water - a routine practice til recently for those who died at sea too far from land.

Ramble over...