Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings

[ArathornJax]

Hello, I feel like the Def Leopard song "Foolin" at least this part:

"I realized that . . .
Is anybody out there, anybody there
Does anybody wonder, anybody care
Oh, I just gotta know
If youre really there and you really care"

So this is a test to see if this post sticks . . .

I'm probably not going to post on this until I know the posts are sticking. I noticed that Brian's new post has been deleted as well.

[ArathornJax]

Ok, several observations. First, the staff:

"Gandalf held his staff aloft, and from its tip there came a faint radiance which just showed the ground before his feet. They started on their way. By the pale light, they caught glimpses of stairs and arches and of passages and tunnels, sloping up, or running steeply down, or opening blankly dark on either side."

The key word here is tip. I guess you could say that a tip is the top, like the tip of a mountain, but the word also means the end of an extremity so it could mean the bottom. Much like the tip of an old spinning top. So it does provide a new way of looking at this, something I had not considered. Perhaps Gandalf can radiate light from the top, from the whole staff or from the bottom.

A close listening also gave me further evidence in a discussion I am in on the Balrog. It is evident that Gandalf (as Tolkien stated in one of his letters) knew there was a Balrog in Moria (and Legolas was the only other party member who could recognized it). I know someone who is arguing that the Balrog controled the weather on Caradhras and thus wanted to fight Gandalf. I argue that it was Sauron, based on info from Tolkien and the text itself (his arm has grown long) that closed the pass to force them through Moria. I also do not believe that the Balrog was in league with Sauron, though the Balrog was used by Sauron (see Appendix A under Durin's Folk) for his purposes (destroying the Kingdom of Khazad-dum, confronting Gandalf etc) and to further them. I think this also shows that as we'll get to in the next disc that Celeborn knew what was in Moria as well.

I would welcome thoughts on this as well. I always imagine that there were chasms in the chamber where the orcs had light fires and the trolls were bringing stones to bridge those chasms so the orcs could attack. Then the Balrog appears and the trolls and orcs fall back giving way to this demon. Then the orcs waited to follow the fellowship because of daylight and because they had to repair the bridge that was broken even if in a hastly way. However, could trolls be bringing a piece of stone (from lets say a fallen pillar) that is long enough to make a second bridge over the chasm?

Finally, I think it is at this point that Frodo realizes or begins to, that he is alone. He has lost Gandalf and from this point to the falls, he knows in his heart what he has to do; move to Mordor on his own. I also think this is why it is replayed on the next disc (along with the sense of loss).

[Brian Sibley]

..I'm BACK!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes - my mistake. I've re-checked my copies - in my 1965 First edition (& no, for the pedants out there its not a first/first, but it is the first ed. text & map) the map shows Hithaiglin, & also in my second ed. Two Towers from 1969 its Hithaiglin (as also in my 1976 paperback set - which was the first copy of LotR I bought)

Were these US or UK editions? It's my understanding that A&U made periodic corrections at the behest of JRRT and later CRT, but that the H-M 2nd ed. remained unchanged until the Doug Anderson corrections of 1987.

The Ballantines did not use CJRT's original map but rather substituted redrawings, the earlier by Barbara Remington and the later (1988 onward) by Shelly Shapiro.

[ArathornJax]

everyone else. Hopefully we get back on track again.

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Were these US or UK editions? It's my understanding that A&U made periodic corrections at the behest of JRRT and later CRT, but that the H-M 2nd ed. remained unchanged until the Doug Anderson corrections of 1987..

UK editions.. I'm not up on the publication history though, or what changes occurred when. I just looked at me books & that's what I found - FotR 1st ed text (14th impression 1965) has Hithaiglin - though the word is partly obscured by the illustration (which is why I originally thought it was Hithaeglin) & TT 2nd ed text (4th impression1969) also has Hithaiglin. The earliest paperback I have is from 1976 (again 2nd/4th) which has Hithaiglin. Its Hithaeglir in my 1981 1st/1st hb UT. They're all A&U btw.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only version of the '54 map I have is in my H-M 2nd/12th (ca. 1974), where the name is still Hithaiglin. This was probably a mistake on CT's part in his great haste: the mountains are not labeled at all on JRRT's original, and their Elvish name does not appear anywhere in the text. Its first appearance, already Hithaeglir, is in the Annals of Aman ca. 1951. My very limited resources don't indicate that the name was changed before the 1980 redrawing.

However, the original '54 maps have on occasion been silently corrected. In my 50th Anniversary copy on the large-scale RK map it is now Cirith Ungol, as opposed to Kirith Ungol still present in the '74. Also, relatively early on, the Shire map was altered (somewhat crudely) to get Brandy Hall on the correct side of the Buckland Road.

[davem]

Any road up..... (as we say here in God's own county ) back to the plot.

One thing I wanted to bring up, mainly in response to earlier attacks on the sound effects is how well most of them are done. Yes, its easy to pick up on the ones that don't qute come off, but in the main they are exceptionally good - so good that actually you don't notice them - what I mean is the natural sounds, from birdsong, to echoing corridors & halls, to the movement of furniture, are all so perfectly done that you simply accept them. I think that's why the odd bad effect sticks out like a sore thumb.

In the Church House recording Penny Leicester stressed how much effort went into creating the effects - particularly the Moria sequence, & apparently none of the Orc cries over the entire series are ever duplicated - all are unique. Peter Woodthorpe also spoke about how much effort went in to creating the effects. I doubt the BBC would ever put so much effort into a radio series now. So, I think the truth is that its because the effects in this series are generally so good that when they do occasionally fail the seem to fail big time. So, a few questions for Brian

One aspect of the production that I haven't heard very much about is the part played by the old Radiophonics workshop - I mean, how much time did they put in - & was there much experimentation - I don't suppose you can just come up with a Ringwraith voice, or the sound of a Balrog in a couple of minutes.

Oh, & one other thing - I know the Ring sound was created by running a finger around the rim of a wine glass - but who came up with that idea? It sounds so right, but would any of us have thought of doing that?

And, finally for now - what was the largest number of actors in the studio at one time - was the whole Fellowship ever in the studio together?