Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Boromir88]

Or instead of arguing semantics about what one member said Durin's Bane height was, and what another said, and look straight at the text....

"A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high and yet terror
seemed to go before it."~HoME VII: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man’s shape, but its
form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked.~ibid

And these are consistant with the descriptions of the balrog height in The Lord of the Rings: The Bridge of Khazad-dum. There you have it, Durin's Bane is roughly 6 feet tall...now see how simple that was?

(As a note those quotes you will actually find...I'm not being a nasty, tricksy, false, Nerwen )

Basically, to 'wildly interpret' you once again, what you say here boils down to 'all who don't agree with me on the issue are silly (to use the most mild expression).~Heren

Why thank you Heren, for finally admitting that I'm always right.

[obloquy]

I don't think the HoMe VII version and the final version are entirely congruent, Boromir. I think we should not ignore the emendation from "no more than man-high" to "of man shape yet greater." The difference is potentially vast; perhaps in this case it is not so, but the wording of the LotR certainly allows for a very large balrog, and it necessitates one of at least formidable size, especially when the contrast of the earlier draft is kept in mind.

[Rikae]

I have a somewhat oddball answer to this question (sorry for jumping in mid-discussion, too), but I would say Tolkien intended the description of Durin's bane to be ambiguous, using phrases like "Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it" as well as the celebrated two "wings" lines... "mane" can imply something either bestial or human, and "kindled" can either evoke a mane which is on fire or one made of it... similarly, he creates uncertainty by first referring to the shadow being like wings, and then simply referring to the "wings". If anything, verbally, the shadow-wings are given a heighted solidity and reality by being referred to this way (or, if you prefer, the real wings are lent an aura of uncertainty and insubstantiality.) The Fellowship probably couldn't tell whether the wings were real or not, and, by making us see through the Fellowship's confused viewpoint, Tolkien allows the reader to experience some measure of their fear and unease.
I other words, no and yes.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Rikae, I'm pretty much in your camp. The wings are referred both metaphorically and non-metaphorically, which is quite ambiguous. Long ago, I came up with my own rationale for this: Since balrogs are Maiar and, one presumes, originally incarnated themselves in ways they chose, it's possible that not all balrogs looked alike, and this particular one chose to manifest itself in a shape that had wings in order to make a more imposing and terrifying appearance to its foes. The wings, however, are clearly not functional; we are never told that the critter flew. It leaps out onto the bridge, it cannot fly up after falling into the chasm, there is no inference anywhere that it is at all capable of flight. But it could still have wings for show, to make itself look huge and looming and threatening, and thus strike fear into the hearts of its enemies and underlings.

Now, one does wonder if all balrogs looked alike, or if they actually did choose different forms...? Hmmm.....

[obloquy]

They probably all looked more or less like the Children. However, it would have been to Morgoth's advantage for his servants to be incarnated so it is possible that he imposed it on them, perhaps by directly incarnating them if he had that power, perhaps by tricking them into bringing it upon themselves. If Morgoth chose their forms there's somewhat more possibility that they appeared monstrous.

I think yes.What is your opinion?

[Eönwë]

Since new members are registering every moment, I will bring this back into the light.

Second of all, since I've never commented, I think that balrogs probably didn't have wings.

But Ibrin's comment is probably the truest- they were all (at least slightly) different.

But maybe they could have wings, which help them to glide (like the "draco" lizard or some types of tree frogs and even some types of snakes.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bump (or is that flap?)

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Flap. Definitely flap.

It might be a flightless flap, but ostriches give those all the time.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Flap. Definitely flap.

It might be a flightless flap, but ostriches give those all the time.

So, the balrog is a flapping, flightless bird freak now? And not a demon using it's big, scary, shadowy intimidation by shaping into ludicrously large (figuritive) wings? Large wing span = me frightened, like California Condor frightened.

[Kuruharan]

Man, this thread is positively hilarious to come back and re-read four years after the last time I read it.

Of course, the important point I wish to make here is that I want the ability to vote over and over again until my side is ahead.

[skip spence]

I think no. What do you think?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The most disappointed I'd ever been was when, upon meeting a friend of a friend whom I was told also "loved Lord of the Rings" I asked this question and received the notorious response:

"What's a Balrog?"

[Morsul the Dark]

Eomer had a similar experience,

Someone in class a couple years back said she loved LOTR, so I asked.

response- "Um duh, you can see them right there on the screen."
me, "Yeah in the movie but what about the book?"
"There's a book?"

"facepalm"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I think no. What do you think?

I voted no. If Eru had meant for Balrogs to fly, he'd have given them hovercrafts.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Eomer had a similar experience,

Someone in class a couple years back said she loved LOTR, so I asked.

response- "Um duh, you can see them right there on the screen."
me, "Yeah in the movie but what about the book?"
"There's a book?"

"facepalm"

Imagine the Downs didn't exist and that was all we had?

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

The most disappointed I'd ever been was when, upon meeting a friend of a friend whom I was told also "loved Lord of the Rings" I asked this question and received the notorious response:

"What's a Balrog?"

Does anyone else around here despise it when someone who has only watched the movies says that they love Lord of the Rings?
I find them to be thoroughly aggravating...

*ahem* On the topic. I think they had wings, but they couldn't fly. Sort of like chickens and dodos, if you get what I mean.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Sort of like chickens and dodos, if you get what I mean.

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds. I learned this from a poster on a bathroom stall of a building I sauntered into because nobody bothered to shut the door and I needed a restroom. I thought you'd like to know.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds.

The fact that figures of that kind have an 89.9847353% chance of having been made up on the spot notwithstanding, chickens can indeed fly a little bit, so that leaves dodos.

Let's try it out:
"Ai!" wailed Legolas. "A dodo! A dodo is come!"

Hmmm.

[Morsul the Dark]

I don't understand why they can't exist for show... like A snake with a fringed neck or the Sarcastic Fringhead Fish

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The fact that figures of that kind have an 89.9847353% chance of having been made up on the spot notwithstanding, chickens can indeed fly a little bit, so that leaves dodos.

94.223^3% of people may believe that you just completely invented that statistic.

Nevertheless, I tend toward "just because they're made out of shadow doesn't mean they aren't real," combined with a healthy dose of "just because a body part exists doesn't mean it has to work: just look at wisdom teeth and appendices; not only are they not-useful, they seem to be designed specifically to make our lives WORSE."

Try telling me shadows don't exist! Don't be hatin' just because them vestigial shadow appendages are dysfunctional in an enclosed subterranean environment.

I like to think Gandalf's last words were a shrouded insult to Roggie.

"Fly, you fools!" he yelled, but nobody heard his next muttered sentence: "Because the balrog can't. Suck it, balrog!"

[Morthoron]

'Winged speed', ladies and gentlemen, 'winged speed':

'Swiftly they [Morgoth's Balrogs] arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.'

Now, you may believe the phrase 'winged speed' (in Shakespearean pronunciation, 'wing-ed speed') is a metaphor; however, in context to the sentence as a whole, 'Swiftly they arose' indicates lift or ascent. Tolkien uses the words 'passed...over' and not merely 'crossed' Hithlum, which also refers to an overhead route, and a 'tempest of fire' ('tempest' defined as a storm or squall) would be defined as a firestorm from above. 'Arose', 'passed...over', 'winged speed', 'tempest' -- all indicative of flight, ascent or heights.

In addition, have any of you ever looked at the distance between Hithlum and Lammoth, and were you aware that Ered Lómin (the Echoing Mountains) separated Hithlum from Lammoth? To put it in context with the internal logic of the story, the balrogs 'arose', 'and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum' -AND- over Ered Lomin, and they alighted into 'Lammoth as a tempest of fire.'

The Balrogs were called by Morgoth in an emergency, a life and death situation where minutes counted. They did not run like some cartoon characters -- feet whizzing in a cyclonic blur like Speedy Gonzalez or the Roadrunner -- and simply scaled Ered Lómin like some mega-hikers hyped up on meta-amphetamines, all in an appropriate amount of time to swiftly aid Morgoth. The very idea is absurd. The passage only makes sense if they had wings and flew over the mountain in time to save their master.

As far as Durin's Bane, when was the last time he had a chance to fly in Moria? Would flight even be possible in such unlit caverns? Where would he fly to? That he fell when the bridge collapsed does not mean that he couldn't fly; on the contrary, there is such a thing as 'lift' in aeronautics. The Balrog was in free-fall, a nose-dive, and could not maintain sufficient 'lift' because of his great body mass.

In conclusion, Balrogs have wings because it looks much cooler than a plain, old, wingless demon. How insipid! How dreadfully mundane! Argue amongst yourselves, I have all the data I need to make an informed decision.

[Mister Underhill]

Ah (or should that be 'Ai'?), the Balrog Wars. I am fortunately comfortably retired from same, but this thread brings back memories, particularly this, Morth:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

'Winged speed', ladies and gentlemen, 'winged speed': [snip]

I deployed this same argument during a campaign over nine years ago (OMG). I think just about every scrap of Balrog information and evidence, no matter how tenuous or tangential, has been battled over here at one time or another, but it's nice to see one of the more obscure arguments independently confirmed, as it were.

Ten years later and something I said back then seems even more true today -- arguing Balrog wings is like arguing religion or politics. The odds of actually converting someone to your way of thinking are practically nil.

In fact, the ground is so tenaciously contested that this, from Kuru --

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I may be willing to partially concede a small point. [regarding some basically inconsequential detail about the doors of the Chamber of Mazarbul]

-- was a MAJOR victory, of which songs shall be sung and epic poems shall be written hereafter. Seriously, I gotta get going on those poems. They're not gonna write themselves. Anyway, there was feasting, wine, and wenches that night, I assure you.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

The longest recorded flight of a chicken was 13 seconds. I learned this from a poster on a bathroom stall of a building I sauntered into because nobody bothered to shut the door and I needed a restroom. I thought you'd like to know.

I already know that fact, but I was talking on a general note.

[Kuruharan]

...hey...wait a minute...

And besides, I've already changed my mind once already. I was a pro-winger *way* back in the ancient mists of time before I even joined this site.

where minutes counted

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not so sure that is necessarily the case. I think it possible that a personal duel between Morgoth and Ungoliant would have taken days...especially since she was trying to strangle him rather than eat him. I doubt Morgoth was passive against her and he was the great primeval evil after all.

The terms 'swiftly', 'winged speed' and 'tempest' indicate great haste, they do not indicate a leisurely hike over the mountains:

"Heidi!"

"Grandfather!"

"Heidi! Heidi!"

"Grandfather! Grandfather!"

We are not talking about donning one's lederhosen and strolling along the goat paths picking wildflowers on the way to grandfather's chalet.

At the point Morgoth is crying out in lamentations, he no longer has a viable defense against Ungoliant, grown monstrous from gorging herself on the Two Trees. She surpasses him in terror and strength. He is in dire straits and about to be overwhelmed. The Balrogs are not marching for days, they are flying with 'winged speed'. All the several descriptors in the passage I provided indicate flight and not walking or running.

[Kuruharan]

I was not proposing a leisurely hike across the countryside. The distance involved would add to their haste.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. Two factors would contribute to the theory that it had wings, yet did not use them. For one, we all know that neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. After centuries, even ages of hibernation, the balrog was not able to move its wings because the muscles had deteriorated.

The second aspect is that which Shakespeare called "to sleep, perchance to dream". Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings. We all know how disoriented we can be when rudely awakened out of a dream! By the time it remembered its wings, and the additional time it took to remember *how* to use them, it failed miserably because it *could not*.

All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved.

Thank you - really, applause is not necessary.

[Nerwen]

*applauds anyway*

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

An aspect that has not, not my knowledge, been previously mentioned is that of the balrog's long sleep. ... neglect and disuse produces atrophied muscles. ...Dreaming for such a long time may have caused the balrog to forget that it had wings.

Good point imo about muscle atrophy.

I'm not so sure about the forgetting, tho, as the Balrog had been awake again for several hundred years - certainly long enough to notice these things on its back and think about what they were for.

Of course, being *inside* the mines for that whole time it would not have much (if any) opportunity to use the wings for flying <not much space for it>.

[Inziladun]

One thing I've wondered about is this: if the Balrogs could really fly, why couldn't they have been searching for Gondolin from the air, after Húrin gave away its general location to Morogth? Why did it take the capture of Maeglin to allow the city to be found?

Sure, the Eagles were present to keep watch, but would a Balrog really not be up to facing a giant bird?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

All further posts and arguments are redundant: the mystery has thusly been solved.

Nice try!

I feel obliged to point out that even though your assumptions were to be correct and the Balrog really was suffering from muscle atrophy and amnesia that would only help to explain why it couldn't fly if it had wings. Your arguments do nothing to prove or disprove that the Balrog had wings in the first place. And yes I'm aware they were tongue-in-cheek and, you know, the very idea of winged Balrogs vainly flapping their stunted wings like a barn-yard chicken is very amusing for sure...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aha!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...in_873x627.jpg

[HerenIstarion]

Do you mean to say Balrogs had attachable plastic wings?

[narfforc]

Looking at the picture Heren, I think they are metal, either way plastic or metal, they look nothing like shadowy wings to me, are you sure they dont belong to a Vampire Figure or a Jurassic Park Pterodactyl Fordim. So the question should be 'Do the Balrogs have Metal or Plastic looking Shadowy Wings?'.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

One thing I've wondered about is this: if the Balrogs could really fly, why couldn't they have been searching for Gondolin from the air, after Húrin gave away its general location to Morogth? Why did it take the capture of Maeglin to allow the city to be found?

Sure, the Eagles were present to keep watch, but would a Balrog really not be up to facing a giant bird?

Another point...why would the Balrog in Moria have 'leaped across the fissure' instead of flown? I'm sure this has been addressed before. Not sure why I just said that. Only thing is I'm assured that Balrogs have wings but cannot fly.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Do you mean to say Balrogs had attachable plastic wings?

No, plastic wasn't invented at that time Maybe velcro?

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Only thing is I'm assured that Balrogs have wings but cannot fly.

A bit like an ostrich, wings but cannot fly. Having been stuck in the Dark Pit for a few thousand years, would they have become defunct or the Balrog had just forgotten he had them. Maybe this is what Tolkien what trying to tell us, they (the wings) had become shadows of their former selves.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by narfforc

A bit like an ostrich, wings but cannot fly. Having been stuck in the Dark Pit for a few thousand years, would they have become defunct or the Balrog had just forgotten he had them. Maybe this is what Tolkien what trying to tell us, they (the wings) had become shadows of their former selves.

I mentioned the ostrich bit earlier myself, only I said dodos And I agree with you, though one thing foxes me:

Glorfindel and Ecthelion and Fëanor could take on Balrogs (more than one at a time). They were Elves. They died in the end, but that's besides the point. If Gandalf is a Maia, why did he have so much trouble? I know they are not allowed to reveal their full power in ME, but still.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I mentioned the ostrich bit earlier myself, only I said dodos And I agree with you, though one thing foxes me:

Glorfindel and Ecthelion and Fëanor could take on Balrogs (more than one at a time). They were Elves. They died in the end, but that's besides the point. If Gandalf is a Maia, why did he have so much trouble? I know they are not allowed to reveal their full power in ME, but still.

I think it's largely situational. Glorfindal managed to take a Balrog over a cliff, Echthelion managed to take one into a deep fountain. I'm not sure that Feanor "took on" Balrogs, it's more that they took HIM on - and killed him without suffering loss.

Largely, I think this all indicates how powerful the Elvish lords were. Remember Fingolfin was able to deal 7 long-lasting wounds to Morgoth himself. Gandalf, as a Maia, may not have been so significantly more powerful than the greatest Elvish lords - at least not in physical prowess (his "power" in the end was in encouraging other beings to join the fight and in showing love to them).