The Barrow-Downs?

[Lalwendë]

Well said, radagastly. That section does add to the texture of Middle-earth. That whole section of the books is amongst my favourites, purely because it is so magical - in fact you can keep your Elves, I find the Barrow-Wight, Tom, Goldberry and Old Man Willow more magical than all the Elves put together Those chapters are just stuffed with references to English folklore and history.

Old Man Willow also foreshadows the Ents, and the Barrow-Wight the army of the dead.

And from a purely narrative point of view, it gives the Hobbits some genuine adventure and peril before they run into Strider. Had they run into him after having a wholly uneventful journey to Bree then I think they would have reacted in a completely different manner.

[Groin Redbeard]

Bang on job Radagastly! You hit the nail right on the head.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

That whole section of the books is amongst my favourites, purely because it is so magical - in fact you can keep your Elves, I find the Barrow-Wight, Tom, Goldberry and Old Man Willow more magical than all the Elves put together Those chapters are just stuffed with references to English folklore and history.

Yes, yes, I love the fact that there is so much mystery located in that region of Middle Earth! I love folklore and history and that chapter seems to cover all of that.

[Mithalwen]

That I hate Tom Bombadil so much I pretend he doens't exist. I about know the folklore thing but to me he is so awful I can't bear it. But I do quite like theOld Forest itself. Trees good, sub-Vogon poets bad....

[Rumil]

Wasn't Old Tom a childhood toy of the Tolkienses?

If so I guess this personalises the story for the Prof's own children, which I think nobody can complain about. Also this part of the story seems to be the transition between the 'kid's story' of the Hobbit and the darker world of LoTR. By the Weathertop encounter things get considerably more serious!

I seem to remember an old thread on this part of the book...

[Mithalwen]

I know all this yet I wish so much the Prof had revised and written out the twee-ness...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know all this yet I wish so much the Prof had revised and written out the twee-ness...

It seems to me there are two different points of view developing here about Ole Tom and the House of Bombadil. The first is that the entire sequence from Crickhollow to the Barrow Downs to Bree is not essential to the narrative--it's just a major black hole in the plot.

The second concerns frustration with Ole Tom hisself, the much referred to "twee-ness". (And it isn't just Mith who feels this way, so I'm not 'singling' her out.)

But what are the elements of twee-ness? Is it just Tom's nonsense verse? Or is it Tom himself as a character with power who doesn't seem much bothered by his power? Is it depiction of Tom and Goldberry and their habits of dinner partying? Are these places where Tolkien's style--gasp!--is at fault in that it jars a far number of readers? If Tolkien had had a surer hand with nonsense verse, would Ole Tom be better received?

Are the Barrow Downs just too British, too closely linked to the geography of Great Britain to be important to New Zealanders and the Americans in Hollywood? (Hey Nolly, Nolly, the woods are awake!) Are the barrows which dot the British landscape meaningful only for the denizens of that island? Did PJ reject them as being too insular? Or, again, are they a black hole in the plot and thereby easy to eliminate?

Is the British folklore and history which is so dear to Lal something that has not made the leap over the Pond and become the stuff of global English culture? Or, again, is it Tolkien's style which fails here?

[The Might]

Still the initial question remains could LotR have lived without it?
Of course every bit of the story has itw own importance and of course without any part LotR wouldn't be LotR truly any longer, however, I feel that LotR could have lived even without certain scenes, as you can see in the movies.
Don't want to start a big discussion by bringing that up, but the story could have done very well without this passage.
Please do not bring up changes that would have been caused as an argument as that makes no sense.
So what if the Hobbits would have reached Weathertop earlier? Tolkien could easily change it so that they would leave later or make the Nazgul leave earlier or whatever. And the outcome and everything afterwards (still there is the problem with the swords of the Hobbits, but maybe they received them in Rivendell or Tolkien could have thought up something to replace the barrow-wight scene) would have remained the same.
So yes, LotR could have lived without this.

[Laurinquë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Are the Barrow Downs just too British, too closely linked to the geography of Great Britain to be important to New Zealanders and the Americans in Hollywood? (Hey Nolly, Nolly, the woods are awake!) Are the barrows which dot the British landscape meaningful only for the denizens of that island? Did PJ reject them as being too insular? Or, again, are they a black hole in the plot and thereby easy to eliminate?

Is the British folklore and history which is so dear to Lal something that has not made the leap over the Pond and become the stuff of global English culture? Or, again, is it Tolkien's style which fails here?

On the topic of barrows in general, when I first read LotR I assumed, as a rather ignorant 15 year old American would, that Tolkien had invented barrows and that they existed only in ME. I was soon told otherwise by my mother though, and have since learned a lot about barrows.

But PJ was probably very familiar with the range of knowledge of American teenagers such as myself and this may have been a reason he left the Barrow-downs out, to avoid confusing and possibly alienating his young audience, but it's seemingly inconsequential role in the story was probably the main factor.

Also, back to my question (it was actually TheGreatElvenWarrior who posted the question, with my permission, under my name, not hers, because we were on the same computer and she didn't feel like switching to her account) I like what Alatar said: "Frodo could have left his friends for dead, and the Wise would (maybe) have agreed with the sacrifice, but in the end, Frodo chose to stay and fight the darkness." I never really thought about it that way.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

That I hate Tom Bombadil so much I pretend he doens't exist. I about know the folklore thing but to me he is so awful I can't bear it. But I do quite like theOld Forest itself. Trees good, sub-Vogon poets bad....

I have to agree although I wouldn't say I hate him. He is silly but he also gives us a fair bit of ME history with his tales. But we certainly could do without his hopping about, his whistling and his oversized boots.

I also like the Old Forest. One of the most vivid mental images I have of LOtR is the hobbits entering the tunnel under the Hedge in the mist of dawn.

The Barrow-Downs are also atmospheric and add to the ME experience.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An interesting bit of forum trivia for those of you who weren't around in the early days here - The Barrow-Wight was actually happy to have a 'book only' name for the forum when the movies came out. Can you imagine what chaos there would have been here had he chosen something popular with the Leggy lasses and other movie fans?!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Before you Tom-haters dismiss him and his role out of hand, don't overlook this:

Suddenly Tom's talk left the woods and went leaping up the young stream, over bubbling waterfalls, over pebbles and worn rocks, and among small flowers in close grass and wet crannies, wandering at last up on to the Downs. They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again.

Here, 'one brushstroke at a time' as Radagastly so aptly put it, Tolkien masterfully begins to open his wider canvas to the reader via Frodo. This is not historical narrative a la Gandalf in Ch 2, it really isn't history at all: but it's a visual (and audio) montage of the vast *weight* of history that bears down on the story, that curious bedrock of 'reality' which makes Tolkien so distinctive. And the imagery! Sheep not merely grazing, but 'biting' tha grass. Can't you hear it, and the underlying silence necessary for hearing it? It's a very cinematic passage and brilliantly effective in itself and in its metanarrative role.

[Eönwë]

Well, this is definitely one of my favourite parts of the book (How can you hate Tom?!), so I don't think it could be done without.

Also, it is quite interesting to see that just outside the nice protection of the Sire, there is some darkness, a little shade of evil. And Tom builds them up for aan adventure. While Tom is there it is a "safe" adventure to prepare them for what is to come.