Werewolf XLII, Mist in the Barrow Downs

[McCaber]

Richard the Unobscure strode in from the southern fields, imposing in his priestly robes and massive warhammer.

"Asleep for this whole time? Not I. While you were here jawing, I was out hunting ... wolf."

He threw down a large sack and five wolf heads spilled out onto the ground.

"Now, to business. Though the Day is not yet half gone, some have stood out as suspicious to me so far. I am not in favor of Menel simply agreeing with an earlier post and not bringing anything new to the table. I also did not like the sound of Macalaure's speech, up until this last post, which might do much towards changing my mind.

EDIT: crossed with Aganzir

[Meneltarmacil]

I wasn't just repeating others' arguments there, at least I don't think so. True, I agreed with Nogrod that Rikae was talking nonsense, but the part about people using their own playing styles regardless of their role hadn't been brought up here. I argued against Nogrod's lynching using my own arguments.

Now, I'm not sure what to make of Mac's declaration that he was only trying to get a wolf to slip up. It's most likely genuine, but it could be a trick by a wolf to avoid being caught. Rikae continues to worry me, though. She apparently thinks a "conventional vs. weird" debate has merit, and also advocates using gut feelings. Not that there's anything wrong with using instinct, but "I have a gut feeling about him" would be a good way for a wolf to sway the voting without having to make up a reason.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now, one thing I would like to ask about - Greenie, do you actually see Sally's "suspicion" of Nogrod as serious? I'm quite sure it isn't, and the fact that you use it as a basis to suspect Sally doesn't look good.

Well, this could be answered with another question: are any suspicions here (including mine, mind you) actually serious, or rather, well-based or truly substantial? I should guess they aren't, which of course makes suspecting people at this phase no less important. My point is: though our suspicions at this point (generally) cannot have a good basis, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't suspect people at all. On the contrary, we should suspect as much as we can, to gather some substance to plant better suspicions on.

I didn't answer Rikae's question straightly, though... Was that answer enough, or do you want me to explain some more?

Now, then, about the whole "let's lynch the one who looks most suspicious" -theory-thingy. While I understand the point that the one who is considered suspicious-looking is often an ordo, I could respond by asking what do people mean by the term suspicious-looking. I understand it simply as who do I suspect to be a wolf, and logically I vote for one I suspect. What is the other option? Vote for the one I find least suspicious? Or rather, choose randomly?

[Gwathagor]

I'm sorry I haven't been involved in the discussion yet; I'm still getting a feel for the game at this point. However, I have been reading through the thread and taking notes, and I'll try to make some educated suggestions after dinner. I'm bringing my Colt Python .357 magnum...loaded with silver bullets. Let's kill us a werewolf!

[Macalaure]

And there's was me, thinking that my discussion hook went unnoticed.


Aganzir's backing off from me just after I backed off from her was unexpected. I'll have to make up my mind about her thoroughly tomorrow.

Menel is innocent.

A Little Green is extremely confusing in her response to Rikae. Surely you know there's a difference between a suspicion based on very little and a suspicion based on nothing - and Sally's joke was nothing. I first thought your suspicion was in fun as well, but now I'm wondering about you.
(I wrote this before I read Lily's last post. I'm not sure what to think of this now)

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac, what do you mean by:
"In fact, I was looking for people who sneakily furthered the senseless discussion without giving their own opinion on it (to maintain a helpful image)."? It sounds like you're trying to back out of something, actually -you're going to have to clarify this.

My lorebooks tell me that early-Day-One-senseless-discussion is usually a good start of a game and the way people argue is often a good indicator of guilt. In this village there was nothing of the kind, so I felt like initiating it. Wolves obviously like senseless discussion, so they like to encourage it. On the other hand, they dislike being caught in it themselves - it makes them look unhelpful. That was the stereotype I was looking for.

Originally Posted by Rikae

he seems to be determined to be one of those "weird" players he advocated not lynching.

That, too.

I'm tending towards innocence with Rikae.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Aganzir's backing off from me just after I backed off from her was unexpected. I'll have to make up my mind about her thoroughly tomorrow.

What? Were you backing off? Where? Had you even been really suspecting me?
I don't think I was backing off either (and backing off what? Throwing suspicions around at the beginning of day 1 seldom means that I am all for lynching that person) - I just have the habit to speak what occurs to me, and if your post looked more innocentish than your earlier posts I do tend to mention it. Unexpected, yeah. I have a feeling werewolf is nowadays played with some certain formula and everything that doesn't happen as it's supposed is weird.

Rikae looks rather innocent, but then again that's what I always think.

Originally Posted by Rikae

McCaber - Five wolves, eh? I guess we're all set, then, and then some... hmm. I'm not sure going after Menel right now is really justified - these accusations seem almost deliberately weak.

I agree with you about him, but on the other hand, it's easy to find Menel suspicious, especially if one hasn't played with him that much. I would rather have liked to hear what he thought was wrong with Mac's posts (and it doesn't matter if someone has already said it- better to repeat than say nothing at all).

Greenie looks innocentish also, though I am aware of her ability to fool me.

Of the others I don't know yet.

Anyway, I shall go and have some sleep now.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta, having freed himself from the prison of bedclothes, blinked at Aganzir. "Let us hope you enjoy being wet," he promised, a glint of righteous retribution in his eye, before stalking off.

"Such a mean woman, where I'm concerned," he muttered to himself. "Always doing things to me, threatening me... Remember, the last time she threatened me, she'd been infected by that horrible Lycanthropy... I wonder if the same thing has happened here?"

Tripping over one of the wolf heads laying about the floor, Shasta glared at McCaber. "My good huntsman, these are clearly the heads of Lowland Timberwolves. Any huntsman with a grain of sense would know that this particular type of wolf has its habitat nowhere near our location.... which begs the question, how did you manage to find five where none should be? It makes me think that you're sending off a bit of a Hunter's Hint... but given that poor Farael gave no indication to the presence of a Hunter..."

Shasta trailed off, a wary look on his face.

[Nogrod]

I have promised not to flood-post and o'boy this is hard...

But then again I can make a few longer ones then... So here are some thoughts before I go to bed.

Even though I think the most Mac says is reasonable I find this one quite eyebrow-raising:

Originally Posted by Mac

I'm tending towards innocence with Rikae.

Not because I'd suspect Rikae any more than I do others but because this followed Rikae's post where she made a few questions about Mac's standing and it was left alone as the ending comment on it's own.

What bothers me is the question: why say it after defending oneself from the points Rikae had made? Mac is skilfull enough to post as a believable sense-making ordo if a wolf so at this point his sensibility can't be taken as a proof of his innocence but this kind of "being extra-careful" not to make enemies or to appease others when there is no need for it kind of stand out.

Mac is a questionmark to me right now.

I'm also a bit puzzled of all this discussion on LG's suspicion of Sally. If I just read what she said early toDay I see no problem there: saying that jumping on / chorusing an early suspicion looks wolvish indeed is just plain making sense. Let's go back to it for a moment:

Originally Posted by LG

"Sally... I don't like your easy joining to the suspicion of Nogrod. Also, throwing pillows is a very bad thing to do. Apologise to Nogrod! In addition to this, you are very evil to think Agan's little trick on Shasta a good joke. She did a very naughty thing, and it's nothing to laugh at. You look like an evil child to me. I'll be having a tight eye on you." With that, she gave Sally a taste of her "tight eye".

Rikae's reaction to this was (the very next post in the thread):

Originally Posted by Rikae

Now, one thing I would like to ask about - Greenie, do you actually see Sally's "suspicion" of Nogrod as serious? I'm quite sure it isn't, and the fact that you use it as a basis to suspect Sally doesn't look good.

Re-reading Greenie's points about Sally above kind of make this comment of Rikae to appear in a new light. Now who was jumping on jokes and taking them seriously?

But there's worse to come. Mac followed Rikae's course this way:

Surely you know there's a difference between a suspicion based on very little and a suspicion based on nothing - and Sally's joke was nothing. I first thought your suspicion was in fun as well, but now I'm wondering about you.

Still carrying this initial - and wrong - suspicion that Greenie had kind of seriously accused Sally of werewolvery which she hadn't as you all can see from above quotation.

So why were Rikae and later Mac so ready to go after Greenie who had just posted sense and a few jokes?

But then again - and this is even more disturbing - why did Greenie back off from what she had said after being pressured by Rikae and Mac?

She says:

Originally Posted by LG

Of course she was joking. But there can be evil intentions behind a joke... Okay, let's be frank: I didn't read it as carefully as I could have. The first (but not last, mind you) impression I got from the post was that she was airing a slight, half(or should we say quarter)-serious suspicion in-character. Now that I read it again, I see it as a joke.

This I find the most wolvish this far toDay (it's not much but something). She first made sense - like any decent wolf would - but after questioned she was a bit too happy to change position to talk herself out from suspicion and thence her preliminary sense get's viewed from a different angle... an ordo - if she had spoken honestly in the first post - would have defended her sensible position but a wolf needs to talk herself out from situations she feels are dangerous and can contradict her own earlier positions "admitting" things she has not said.

*Gah, I hope at least someone was able to follow that reasoning...*

Third thing. It's interesting how some people seem to speak against the better knowledge about things toDay.

Shasta said I had left my towel in the bathroom (a bathroom in the Barrow Downs?) after I had myself written that I had it with me. Now why on earth? It's mostly jokes and banter that early in the game but still that kind of made me wonder as he had to have read the few posts there were at that moment to be able to refer to it in the first place. So why on earth? I'm looking forwards to an explanation Shasta.

I was a bit worried about Menel after he said that:

Originally Posted by Menel

I believe that lynching Nogrod is a very bad idea. True, he can make a dangerous wolf, but if he's innocent we'd be losing one of our best. And thus far, what he's said has made a lot of sense, unlike some around here.

It felt just like feel-good -factor stuff. Yes it's nice to hear things like that but just because that it raises eyebrows... But the problem I have with Menel is his next one:

Originally Posted by Menel

True, I agreed with Nogrod that Rikae was talking nonsense

, which I did never say. I did answer Rikae's banter with banter but there was not a single line there suggesting that I was saying Rikae was someone specially talking nonsense...

So I'm quite worried with Menel as well. But with him I'm somewhat hesitating knowing the history of his family. He just ends up being suspected everytime and with my latest experiences (lynched on Day1 three times in a row) I can relate to that.

EDIT: X'd with Shasta...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Shasta said I had left my towel in the bathroom (a bathroom in the Barrow Downs?) after I had myself written that I had it with me. Now why on earth? It's mostly jokes and banter that early in the game but still that kind of made me wonder as he had to have read the few posts there were at that moment to be able to refer to it in the first place. So why on earth? I'm looking forwards to an explanation Shasta.

Shasta laughed. "Simple, my dear Nogrod!" he chuckled. "There were two towels!"

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

She apparently thinks a "conventional vs. weird" debate has merit, and also advocates using gut feelings. Not that there's anything wrong with using instinct, but "I have a gut feeling about him" would be a good way for a wolf to sway the voting without having to make up a reason.

I'm surprised you, of all people, should think that a theory arguing against lynching the odd and conspicuous doesn't have merit, Menel! You are exactly the sort of player I was thinking of as being frequently, and wrongly, lynched on day one.

As for gut feelings, if you'll reread my post you'll see that I actually said I don't want people voting or suspecting without giving reasons. Still, gut feelings can help us decide whose posts to examine more closely, and exploring why the person in question "feels furry" can be useful. Are they cautious? Overly friendly? Forced?

Well, you can take or leave my advice as you will; this is what has worked best for my ancestors.

A few preliminary thoughts:

Aganzir - I'm a bit uneasy about her. She seemed to go from being eager to start arguments, to being eager to smooth them over. Then again, I don't want to be hasty - I've suspected her in every game we've played together, I think, so it may be that her style bothers me.
Legate - Is absent.
Nogrod - Shockingly quiet. I find nothing to suspect in his post, but he is, of course, a wolf.
Lommy - Where oh where is dear little Lommy? Way down yonder in the pawpaw patch... (note: this is just a song, so Nogrod need not get himself lynched over it.)
McCaber - Five wolves, eh? I guess we're all set, then, and then some... hmm. I'm not sure going after Menel right now is really justified - these accusations seem almost deliberately weak.
Sally - Sally is being silly - nothing wrong with that - but if she doesn't get down to the serious business at hand soon, I shall become concerned about her.
Gwathagor - Apparently lost in the mist.
A Little Green - As I said before, her failure (deliberate?) to see that Sally was joking is worrisome.
Macalaure - His talk about "senseless things" is odd. I don't know what he's trying to say, honestly... he seems to be determined to be one of those "weird" players he advocated not lynching. Mac, what do you mean by:
"In fact, I was looking for people who sneakily furthered the senseless discussion without giving their own opinion on it (to maintain a helpful image)."? It sounds like you're trying to back out of something, actually -you're going to have to clarify this.
Nerwen - Where oh where can she be?
Meneltarmacil - I don't find him suspicious... I find him confused (it wasn't Nogrod he was agreeing with, but Greenie, I think) - he seems uncautious and innocentish.
Shasta - Somewhere out there, beneath the pale moonlight... (sunlight?)

Well, conclusions: I'm uneasy about Agan, Greenie, and McCaber at the moment and would like some clarification from Macalaure, while Menel and Nogrod look relatively innocentish.

EDIT: X'd with Greenie's ... um... well. As far as I know, only wolves are interested in promoting baseless suspicions - if you didn't want to direct suspicion toward Sally, you certainly didn't indicate this. I suppose you can say it was an attempt at getting a wolf to follow, but then again, that's easy to say.
As for most suspicious - I think people have already discussed their definitions of that at enough length and there's no further point in it unless it is connected to someone's actual suspicions.

[A Little Green]

Just briefly:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Where oh where is dear little Lommy?

Lommy is having a party-party time..

Originally Posted by Rikae

A Little Green - As I said before, her failure (deliberate?) to see that Sally was joking is worrisome.

Of course she was joking. But there can be evil intentions behind a joke... Okay, let's be frank: I didn't read it as carefully as I could have. The first (but not last, mind you) impression I got from the post was that she was airing a slight, half(or should we say quarter)-serious suspicion in-character. Now that I read it again, I see it as a joke.

Bah. I'd better get some sleep, I fear I'm being both confused and confusing.

x-ed with Gwath(y)