Dragon's Flame, Magical?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Might

It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring.
Superalloys that are not only quite heat resistant but also have great mechanical strength (making them good for armor) take up to 1100°C.

What if dragons were only capable of lesser temperatures? That is an explanation I believe.

If it was that simple, then surely Lord of the Rings should be a guide to build a forge. . .

[Thinlómien]

I agree with Nogrod and Rune. Unfortunately, I don't have my LotR here and I can't remember the exact quote about destroying the ring in a Dwarven forge (at least not in English ), but however it is phrased, it always sounded to me like Dwarves could make ordinary gold melt, but not the One Ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I hope no one is suggesting here that The One Ring is as easy to melt as the other Rings, that is one of the basic LotR axioms! I don't see any problem with TM's idea that the dragon fire was hot enough to melt normal gold, and therefore, also the Rings of Power, but the One was held together by something else. I could almost quote that from my memory only, but for the sake of further clarity, here is the whole quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf, Shadow of the Past

Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

It is clearer than day that the One was held together by something more than just inter-molecular connections.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

But there is more holding the One Ring together than just the obvious. Does it take the same amount of effort to destroy the other rings of power as it does the One Ring?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

*shakes head - reading previous posts is a highly recommended method for answering your questions!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

*shakes head - reading previous posts is a highly recommended method for answering your questions!

I've read Legate's post on the One Ring. My question is how about the other rings. Would it be the same with those?

But you're right Estelyn , I do seldom fully read other peoples posts.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

But that quote from the book does say something about the other rings - read the sentence that begins with "It has been said..." Apparently dragon fire (though not of the cooler dragons existing at the point of time the War of the Rings took place) could melt the other Rings of Power, but not even the strongest (dragon) fire could melt the One Ring.

[Alfirin]

First a question, since all of the rings of power are accounted for at the beginning of the LOTR (the nine men's are on the nazgul, the seven dwarves are in sauron's keeping the three eleven are on Elrond's Gladriel's and Gandalf's fingers and the one is in Frodo's keeping) how exactly does anyone know that dragon fire will melt the lesser rings?
on the main note of this post I seem to recall that there were two kinds of dragon fire in ME. Most dragons fire was red-orange-yellow and I tedn to think that this was simply ordinary fire. But I beive tolkein said that some dragons could also breathe Green flames. Since fire does not, under normal circumstaces burn green (unless the dragons were eating a LOT of copper salts) I think that those flames may have had some sort of additonal power and could be considered "magic" in some manner." As for the Dragonproof armor of The Dwarves I've always just assumed that dwarves, being wise in nature of minerals simply know where to find asbestos and how to wave it into fireproof cloth which could be incroprted into armor. I also seem to recally that a key part of the armor was metal scrresn over the visors which gave the dwarves the advatage of being able to see through the dragons fire without buring their faces off

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I can't remember the exact quote about destroying the ring in a Dwarven forge (at least not in English ), but however it is phrased, it always sounded to me like Dwarves could make ordinary gold melt, but not the One Ring.

True - here's the passage (I think) you are referring to:

But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It is said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself.

This made me think about the fell spirit-thingy... I can't think about the dragons as "just creatures, just like the fell beasts" like Groin said. The thought of dragons being maiar-sort of creatures is much more intriguing, but as little reasonable. Gandalf's "for that was made by Sauron himself" indicates to Sauron being much more powerful than the dragons, so if Sauron is a maia, and if dragons indeed are somewhere close, then, well, Saorun must be just an uncommonly powerful maia, and the dragons weak. The former is certainly true, the latter I'm not so sure of.

Originally Posted by Legate

The Rings were not made as something that should resist dragon fire (like that you'd make an anti-dragon shelter from a pile of Rings or create for yourself a Ring-mail), their resistance to fire is a "side power".

Good point Didn't think about it that way...

EDIT: Oh good, x-ed with Legate... Just how popular is this thread, anyway?

[Aganzir]

Just to clarify:

Originally Posted by Letter #144

Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70: 'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.

Originally Posted by Might

What about a heat resistant alloy?

How can that prevent the dwarves from dying? They would still die of the heat. Ha, unless their blood had a very high boiling point! When it comes to dwarves, nothing is impossible.

But how did the dragons themselves stand the heat? I would imagine Glaurung had quite a sore throat after burning some trees... I'm rather sure even Melkor couldn't make them as heat-resistant bodies as they needed. Even though they were 'lesser spirits', is there any evidence against the idea that they had 'chosen' their form themselves (though forced by Melkor)?

Originally Posted by Greenie

Gandalf's "for that was made by Sauron himself" indicates to Sauron being much more powerful than the dragons, so if Sauron is a maia, and if dragons indeed are somewhere close, then, well, Saorun must be just an uncommonly powerful maia, and the dragons weak.

Could Gandalf destroy the One Ring? Could a balrog, for instance, have done that? On the other hand, Melkor could destroy the Trees and the Lamps.
Sauron would not have risen to the rank he had, had he not been an exceptionally powerful maia. He was definitely more powerful than the dragons, and thus I find it totally credible that no dragon could have destroyed a ring with Sauron's powers in it.

To me, that's a sufficient answer to why dragons couldn't have melted the One Ring, but I'm still rather baffled about dwarven armours.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

On the other hand, Melkor could destroy the Trees and the Lamps.

Just to clarify: the Lamps were probably destroyed by the combinated effort of Melkor's fallen-Maia hosts, and with the Trees, he needed the help of Ungoliant.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Agan

But how did the dragons themselves stand the heat? I would imagine Glaurung had quite a sore throat after burning some trees... I'm rather sure even Melkor couldn't make them as heat-resistant bodies as they needed.

Come on, it's fiction, not science If we start looking for too scientific explanations, all we'll result with is most likely a headache. For me, it is enough to think that if a dragon's body can produce flame then it must be able to stand the heat. It's like... umm... well, like the poison a snake secretes doesn't harm the snake itself, because it has an immunity to it.

Do I make sense?

[skip spence]

Reading Tolkien I had a compelling vision af how Glaurung, the first dragon, was 'made'.

I imagine that on some high cliff up on Thangorodrim Morgoth and his Balrogs had a great reptile bound with heavy iron chains. There, under the dark, starless sky, they would chant a long and powerful spell, summoning a fire spirit of the kind that was corrupted by Melkor in ages past. By his crafts, Morgoth would then command the spirit to possess the struggling creature. When it had successfully done so, the reptile, now Glaurung the father of dragons, could feed on noldorin thralls growing ever larger and more cunning.

As for the dragon's fire beeing magical, I think it depends on what you mean by magical. A fire-breathing great lizard with a mind far more powerful than a man's is certainly a 'magical' creature, I would say. The fire itself is merely very hot, I imagine. I also think that the dwarven armours could withstand dragons fire to a certain degree, and from some distance. If a dragon blasted a dwarf from point blank range he would no doubt fry like a marshmallow.

[The Might]

A Little Green, as long as there is a book out there called "The Science of Middle-earth" I wouldn't be so hasty to discard the whole scientific explanation part. So no, to me you're not making that much sense.
Tolkien was no the kind of person to write stuff without thinking it at least a little bit through and everything there has a certain explanation.

Now to the dragon idea, the basic theory in pretty much all newer dragon works is that the fire is only created in their mouths through the mixture of two separate chemical substances. And this makes quite a lot sense. Anything that can be pierced by a sword isn't probably capable of taking that much heat. Thus, a dragon himself wouldn't really need to take that heat himself.

Aganzir, indeed good criticism. I had not really taken that into account. As I am not really an expert in material qualities I can't really say what would work, but if workers in foundaries have something like that it could be an idea.
Although I don't understand what you mean by "lesser spirits", in CoH they are "great spirits" implying Ainur.

And I also see no reason why they should not have been. After all Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar and one of the best smiths. Their weakness is relative.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Come on, it's fiction, not science If we start looking for too scientific explanations, all we'll result with is most likely a headache.

I think I just got one. I do believe that we are looking into this just a little too much. As Farael said there are certain things in Middle Earth which are undoubtedly magical, and I don't believe that everything that Tolkien created can be explained by science.

Originally Posted by Might

It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring.

But there is more holding the One Ring together than just the obvious. Does it take the same amount of effort to destroy the other rings of power as it does the One Ring?