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#1 | |||
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Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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I guess I'm the main contributor to my own thread here! My research is turning up interesting tidbits of information that I'll share with you as I find them. As always, your comments and additions are very welcome.
The first fact comes from The History of The Hobbit; in Tolkien's early version of that passage, the Dwarves' instruments were originally somewhat magical in nature. The fiddles and flutes were brought out normally, but Quote:
Quote:
Actually, I have come up with the answer to the "what happened" - when the ponies were taken by the goblins, it is said: Quote:
- and similar use of weapons) I assume that the instruments were destroyed, perhaps taken apart for any materials of value that they might have contained.More to come in the next days - I'm now working my way through pertinent references in Sil, UT, and HoME as well as LotR.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 |
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Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Esty,
I am enjoying your comments and insights immensely. I can't add anything helpful, but please keep posting as you progress!
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. |
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#3 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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An interesting topic, as I am also a musician and composer.
There are the Ulumuri, the Horns of Ulmo, and the trumpets of Manwe are also mentioned, as well as the bells of Valmar/Valimar. When one considers that, in the authorial presentation, the Silmarillion was presumably written by one or more Elves, then one could presume that in describing things they did not see -- such as the Ainulindale -- they would have attempted to describe it in ways they understood. Since the organ was one of the first instruments I learned to play, I was rather surprised by that particular reference when I first saw it, since it seems rather a modern instrument, compared to harps and flutes and drums and such. But after thinking about it, if Elves could learn to craft things like the silmarilli, an organ would seem rather easy by comparison. |
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#4 |
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Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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In the early version of the Ainulindale (given in the Book of Lost Tales, HoME I), Tolkien actually has the Valar playing instruments, including the organ. However, he later changed that into singing that sounded like instruments playing. Though as an instrumentalist I love instrumental music, I can see the logic of his thinking there - after all, if they were singing in the Void, there would be no instruments, as those would have had to be previously created.
Yes, Ibrīnišilpathānezel (definitely a copy-and-paste nick if I ever saw one! Welcome to the Downs!), the organ is anachronistic - it appears that the music, like the whole setting of the story, is intended to be rather medieval in style. I'm not yet sure what to think of that reference. The Dwarves' clarinets are out of historical context too, though one of the essays I read on the internet (linked to by Aiwendil) names their predecessors as the most likely choice of actual instrument.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#5 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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Call me Ibrin or Ibri, it's a lot easier.
![]() I think I'm going to have to do a bit of research on the historic origins of the organ. It may help shed a bit of light on the reference. My feel about the writing style of the Ainulindale has always been that it was intentionally Biblical in nature. An Elf, having been told or even given a vision of the Great Music, would no doubt have been rather overwhelmed and befuddled -- in existence without Time or physicality, how does one sing? -- and would not have had the proper frame of reference to really comprehend it, so he would have retold the tale using concepts he and others would understand, I think. From what I do recall about the earliest organs, they were little more than reeds sounded by a bellows, and we do know that reed instruments exist in Middle-earth, since two of the thirteen Dwarves played a clarinet. In fact, in that mention alone, we have two different kinds of bowed strings (fiddles and viols, the latter being described as the size of modern cellos), woodwinds (flutes), single reeds (clarinets) and plucked strings (harp). We also know that percussion and brass are attested to elsewhere, though I have to wonder if all the brass is in the simpler, non-valved form (Feanor was a clever fellow, but would he have bothered himself with the invention of valved brass instruments?)
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#6 |
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Loremaster of Annśminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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The organ is in fact very old- the name comes from the Romans (organum), who got the instrument from the Hellenistic Greeks (the traditional inventor was Ctesibius of Alexandria, 3rd century BC). There are organs still in existence that date from the early 1400's- that's earlier by a century than fiddles and viols, and 300 years older than the clarinet.
Still, the Music says that it was the *voices* of the Ainur, *like unto* various instruments, not that such instruments were actually present. This doesn't necessarily mean that the Ainur opened their mouths and viol-sounds came out: it's a simile, rather like saying "Bob Dylan's voice is like unto a toad being sandpapered to death."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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#7 | |
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Loremaster of Annśminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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Quote:
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didnt know, and when he didnt know it. |
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#8 |
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shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Don't think anyone mentioned Tuor and his harp.
In UT he plays his harp and sings up on a mountain, where he's hiding from his enemies. Heedless of the danger, he loses himself in the music and a stream bubbles up beneath his feet, rushing down the hill. He (correctly) takes this as a sign and it leads him to the gate of noldor, and eventually to Vinyamar and Ulmo. |
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#9 |
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shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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