Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[Roa_Aoife]

You're sort of right. The EW, as well as the GW, can override the decisions of the wolves or gifted at any time. This is actually necessary, because you don't wanter a hunter hunting a seer, etc, or wolves killing another wolf. And sometimes the Wizards just know more.

The wolves can provide any ammount of reasoning they like to the EW, or none at all, with only a name. Depends on the wolf. Likewise the seer can reason who to dream, and the hunter whom to hunt, and the protector whom to protect. It's all ultimately the Wizard's decision how much autonomy they give their team. This allows for varying strategies and creative plays.

As for the unbalance- keep in mind that if the EW picks someone who is gifted to turn, the gifted merely becomes innocent, and the EW gains almost nothing, not even information. If the GW tries to turn a wolf, the wolf becomes innocent and thus switches teams, and if the wolf knows anything, s/he can tell the entire village. There's also the logical hunter- only makes a kill if they target a wolf.

I do agree that the good team should start with three gifted, rather than one, though.

Also, multiple kills for four (perhaps five?) or more wolves just helps keep the game from dragging on too long.

[Nogrod]

Just to refresh the memory and to introduce people who did not play the first DW-game here are the complete rules from the actual game-thread reprinted...

Originally Posted by lmp

Dueling Wizards Werewolf Rules

There are two wizards, and no other gifted at the beginning of the game, which must have a minimum of 20 players, and an arbitrary maximum (first time) of 30. The two wizard roles are assigned from a list of volunteers who are willing to play the roles.

The two wizards don't know who each other are. One is evil, one is good. Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other.

The game begins with a Night phase.

Evil Wizard: each Night the evil wizard picks a villager to curse as a werewolf. The new werewolf is immediately informed and the mod requests a kill choice, which the werewolf provides by the end of the 24 hours. On the first Night of the game, the Evil Wizard chooses three werewolves; thereafter s/he chooses one per Night.

The werewolves do not know each other's identity because while they are werewolves at Night, they cannot detect the identities underlying the curses. When there are multiple werewolves, and they make differing kill choices, the person with the most werewolf "votes" is killed.{**} If there is a tie, the sub-mod for the evil wizard PMs back to each werewolf about the others' choices, and serves as a go-between until the werewolves have come to a majority choice.

{**First, the werewolves place their individual nominees before the Evil team sub-mod. The sub-mod informs the EW & werewolves of all nominees. The werewolves then pick from amongst the nominees until there is a consensus for the Night as to whom to kill. If there is not unanimity, the kill will be based on majority votes. If no majority has been established by the end of the Night, the EW will choose from among the nominees. The EW may overrule all of the nominees (but should be cautious about doing so), and informs the Evil team sub-mod when s/he does so; the sob-mod then informs the werewolves and gives a summary of the EW's reason(s) for the overrule, if the EW wants to give one.}

If the werewolves happen to pick the EW or a werewolf, ALL will be told to pick another kill.

Note: Werewolves do not PM each other and therefore cannot debate with each other; thus, they are not going to find out each others' identities. If in some odd circumstance, a werewolf gets the most votes for the werewolf kill, the evil wizard has the right to overrule the choice, and the werewolves are told to make a different pick. If in some even odder circumstance, the werewolves choose the evil wizard as their kill, the evil wizard of course has the right to overrule their choice. In a 20 or more player game, if there are 4 to 6 werewolves, there are 2 kills per Night; if there are 7 or more werewolves, there are 3 kills per Night.

If the evil wizard chooses a gifted villager to curse, the gifted villager loses the gift but does not turn into a werewolf ... this time. The good wizard is informed of the loss of the gifting.

If the evil wizard picks the good wizard at Night, he is informed that he has discovered the good wizard, and has the option from then on to call out the good wizard to battle during any Day.

The evil wizard may choose to inform one or more werewolves who one or more other werewolves are; but this is a risky option and should be used with great care, considering the possible consequences.

The evil wizard is allowed to lie to his were-creatures.

Good Wizard: each Night the good wizard picks a villager to scry.

1. If the good wizard scries the evil wizard, the good wizard is informed of that, and can call out the evil wizard to battle during any Day, which results in the death of both wizards.

2. If the good wizard scries a werewolf, the werewolf is turned back into an innocent by the good wizard's power.

3. If the good wizard finds an innocent, the good wizard has the option of turning that innocent into a gifted, the choices being seer, ranger, and hunter. If a gifted is de-gifted by the evil wizard's curse, the good wizard may assign that gift to another. A newly assigned gifted may immediately function in the gift the same Night. If a gifted is killed, the gift may be assigned to another innocent. The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

NOTE: There may only be one seer at a time, one ranger at a time, and one hunter at a time.

The good wizard may choose to inform one or more gifteds who one or more of the gifteds are.

The good wizard and gifteds may PM during the Day. The good wizard may withhold from, or divulge information to, the gifteds as the good wizard sees fit. All PMs between gifteds and good wizard must pass through the good team sub-moderator. The gifteds do not know who each other is unless the good wizard tells them.

The evil wizard and werewolves win when the werewolves equal or exceed the number of innocents. The villagers and good wizard win when there is no evil wizard left, and no werewolves left.

There are no shirriffs, no werebears, and no cobblers.

If the good wizard and the evil wizard choose the same previously innocent villager on the same Night, the two wizards discover each other's identity by means of the contest. Since the evil wizard still wants a werewolf, the good wizard must choose whether to let the villager die as a casualty of the wrenching experience of the contest, or let the villager survive and become a werewolf.

Just to be perfectly clear: a wizard battle always results in the death of both wizards, and may only happen during the Day. Once both wizards are dead, the werewolf game reverts to classic rules: no PMing between gifteds during the Day.

There is a vote for lynching every Day. If there is a tie vote, then the first player to have received that many votes, is lynched. If a wizard is voted to be lynched, he will be lynched but cannot die that way, and is thus forced to declare himself, and the opposing wizard can call him/her out for a wizard battle the following Day. A wizard cannot be killed by lynching; instead, nobody dies that Day.

If the evil wizard dies, the werewolves are informed of each other's identity, and revert from there on to traditional werewolf group dynamics.

Each Day and Night will be 24 hours; if such a time frame proves somehow unworkable, it may be changed (with notice of course!) during the game.

Order of Night Activities:
1. Evil wizard picks whom to curse.
2. Good wizard pickes whom to scry.
3. Affected players are informed of results of #1 & #2 (if both wizards pick same villager, this phase gets longer but is completed before the next phase begins).
4. Ranger picks whom to save.
5. Seer picks whom to dream.
6. Hunter picks whom to hunt.
7. Werewolves pick whom to kill.
Note: Steps 4 - 7 can happen simultaneously, but will be recorded by the moderator in the order as listed so as to keep the game straight.

Miscellaneous Rulings:
*There are no multiple lynchings.
*A killed or lynched persons previous roles will not be revealed until the game is over.
*Regarding player etiquette: Accusations and suspicions are what the game of werewolf is all about, and that's why we play. This sometimes includes insults which must be considered as 'all in fun' (using appropriate 'smilies' helps to show that it's all in fun); however, there are limits that must not be crossed: if your gameplaying insults are beyond the pale (you're going to have to accept the moderator's judgment on this), you will be considered to have gone overboard. Therefore, anyone going overboard will get a PM from the moderator with a warning to use better etiquette. Any player that "goes overboard" a second time, will be summarily removed from the game with no death narrative. As one of the Wise once said: "It's only a game - don't be offended, but it's only a game - don't be offensive."
*The seer may dream of the same person more than once. The Ranger may NOT defend the same person two Nights in a row; but may defend the same person every OTHER Night.
*The Hunter may kill (and be killed) either by being killed by a 'picked' werewolf, or when lynched.
*No retractable votes.
*When a player dies, the identity and last role of the player will be named, but previous roles will not.
*References to past werewolf games may be made as follows: "My werewolf lorebook(s) say(s) ....."

Originally Posted by lmp

The Game begins at 6 p.m. today with Night One.

At that time the following things may happen simultaneously:

1. The evil wizard may officialy pick the first three werewolves.
2. The good wizard may scry one player, resulting in the discovered evil wizard, a discovered and uncursed werwolf, or gift an innocent player.

Immediately following that, the next things may happen simultaneously:

3. The three werewolves may nominate one victim to kill, by sending a PM to Boromir88, the evil team sub-mod.
4. If the good wizard has bestowed a gift, the gifted player may, if a seer, pick a player to dream; if a ranger, pick a player to guard; if a hunter, pick a player to hunt.

The victim nomination process will continue until (1) a consensus is reached regarding the werwolf kill, or (2) a majority is reached, or (3) the evil wizard overrules the werewolf choice, which ever happens first.

There will be another narrative post roughly around 6 pm EDT today. Following that will be the first Day post, which will go up at roughly 6pm Friday. Once that post is up, posting may commence.

CRITICAL EDIT: The first Night's kill is Elempi, widowed father of Diamond of the Battledores. Therefore, the werewolves do NOT need to nominate a kill for Night one. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by lmp

A Note on Rules

The first loophole has been discovered. The good wizard chose to scry one of the players that the evil wizard had cursed. On any other Night, I would have allowed the rules to function as I have written them. This Night, however, is a special Night, and I decided that the play of the game would be compromised if the good wizard found out the identity of the evil wizard before there was even a Day One. So I made a decision that the evil wizard's choices would be made early on this Night, and the good wizard's scrying performed late. If this game is ever played a second time, I would strongly recommend that: The Good Wizard does not scry on Night One. The plot does function more cleanly that way, as Loki has suggested. But the gameplay was the deciding factor. There you have it. We shall see how many more of these snap decisions will be needed during this game. Not too many, I hope. Bear with me, it's going to be an interesting ride!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wow, I must say it looks really very interesting (now that I finally read the rules as whole). Only let me raise some questions. First, what bothers me, is what Macalaure already said, yet it did not seem to be answered:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

And did that really work in the past game, even with all the different time zones (of sub mod, wizard, and many wolves)?

Because I imagine it the way that every Night the sub-mod simply cannot sleep but stay awake 24 hours, and the wolves anyway need to send their kills a long time before the DL so that there can be eventually some re-sending if they pick a wolf etc. And still the Wizard needs to be informed and everything... so did it really work, or was it that every night only half of the wolves voted or something?

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I do agree that the good team should start with three gifted, rather than one, though.

Well, that's another thing that bothers me after I read elempi's last note that Nogrod posted. After thinking about it, I realise it can be really bad for the GW to scry on Night One, on the other hand, if he cannot pick a Gifted, he already has significant deficite. I disagree with what Roa said here, however, because you have to count with the possibility that both the Wizards pick the same people, or worse, the GW picks two wolves and the EW: this is almost total victory for the good team even before the game itself started.
Concerning the possibility of GW picking the EW on Night 1, let's not forget that the EW can likewise pick the GW on Night One and we have the same problem. No, I think the possibility that one Wizard reveals another on Night One is not such a problem: after all, they can now decide whether to try to tacticise and wait or whether to bet on the village (resp. wolves) and choose to duel the other Wizard right on Day 1. But I think, after all, that the GW should be allowed to pick his one Gifted on Night 1. In the worst case, he saves a wolf and so the village will start with two wolves on Day 1. But I don't see this as a big problem and anyway, how often this happens?

[Nogrod]

I have lots of work to do so I decided to avoid them by reading this thread through. And you bet I have some ideas and suggestions now...

It's clear we need a big village in this kind of game. I'd say at least 20, hopefully a bit more (there were 30 in the original version but I'm afraid we'll not be able to get that many this time - but who knows?).

That said it looks pretty straightforward to me that in the beginning of the game both the EW and the GW send the mod (and the sub-mods?) a list of 6 or something (depending on the number of gifteds we will give the GW in the beginning: I personally would be ready to give the GW more than one but more of that later) whom they wish to make wolves / gifteds. After that the mod checks the overlaps, makes a lottery if needed and deals the picks. After that he sends the names of the wolves to the EW and notifies the wolves about their status. To the GW the mod would send the names of those selected so that the GW could assign them their roles herself. After the allocation the GW then notifies the sub-mod (or the mod) of her choices and those would then be passed on to the players via the sub-mod (or the mod).

If the Wizard wishes to give any instructions to her minions she would be free to do it before Day1 starts via the sub-mod (who'd actually need to rephrase them).

On the other Nights than the initial Night1 we should have something like a clear system. Not too complicated but still one that would make playing a role other than a Wizard interesting enough. The Wizards should be the ones to make the final decisions though. That's the idea in "Dueling Wizards Werewolf" in the first place. But I'd like to see the people with roles being able to voice their minds as well and be able to make a difference.

So how about something like the wolves and gifteds being able to make PMs where they argue their choice to their respective sub-mods in say 10-14 hours (or something) after the Day has ended and the sub-mod being required to pass that on to the Wizard immediately? Other discussion than that of the choices should be allowed to all people with a role at any time during the Night. It's only this choosing stuff where we'd need to have some deadlines during the Night.

The wizard should also be able to pass information to her minions as much as she wishes. That's something the Wizard and the sub-mod should then work out together (as to when the sub-mod can be online) as the authentic PMs should not be quoted but the sub-mod should alway paraphrase it so that the minions would not quess the identity of their Wizard if she doesn't want them to know it. And in any case if I'm the one modding this one I'd be ready to help in this PM traffic as well if fex. a sub-mod lives in a timezone which limits the possibilities of channeling the posts in time. This all can be fixed when the game starts and we know the particular people involved.

After the wolves and gifteds have given their points (within the 10-14 hour framework or whatever it will be) the wizard could then add her own suggestions and preferences. That would then be passed back to the "chosen" and they could have again a time limit to make further suggestions (like 4 hours before the deadline or something - all these exact hours should be decided when we have the actual people in). Then on the basis of that discussion the Wizard would announce the choices to the sub-mods & the mod - preferably one hour before the deadline so that everything could be counted and a narration could come in time.

That's what I'd call the minimum requirements. Naturally people would be able to PM more and make comments when and as many times they wish. There should just be some clear timelines when certain decisions are made. And it's up to the Wizard whether she wishes to reveal herself to someone in her team which would then allow them to PM without going via the sub-mod.

All this would require the mod and the sub-mods to be able to be online at certain times - the more often the better - but in the end they are all there voluntarily...

The important thing in the "conversation" between the minions and the Wizard is that the minions' PMs can be just passed forwards as they are but the Wizard's PM's should be rephrased by the sub-mods (or the mod if needs be).

I'll take a break now but will come back soon as I still have a few suggestions to make...

[Nogrod]

A few more thoughts on the rules...

I kind of liked lmp's idea that in a case of a tie no one gets killed but at the same time I can see the arguments against that ruling.

So how about we tried something along the lines of "Wizard's battle" over those people? One idea would be that both Wizards could nominate one they would like to keep around and one they would like to get rid of and submitting their choices to the mod. If they agreed the person dies if they don't the person lives. The downside in this would be that only innocents would be killed but it might also save people. Another chance is that the end-result would not be death but "conversion" (so from gifted or a wolf to ordinary or from ordinary to either one according to the result between the Wizards). This one needs to be thought of.

The GW should probably be restricted to one seer at the time but otherwise I might be tempted to allow more than the three gifteds... the EW may appoint an unlimited number of wolves anyhow. But this also depends on the exact capabilities of the gifteds.

I'm not wishing to turn the hunter into a 100% killing-pawn of the GW who could "assasinate" a wolf paying it with her life. Instead I would be persuaded to make it in the way that the hunter in the end - like other gifteds - are responsible of their actions themselves but that the GW could give them instructions on the basis of anything they have discussed or what she seems fit. It would then be the GW's task to make her minions to see why her plans are better than an individual gifted's feeling (and she'd need to decide how much to reveal her knowledge to gain her ends) although in a case of fex. the seer trying to dream of someone already known to the GW she should have a right to override the decision of the seer.

We'd need to think about this one too as I'd like to make the gifteds / wolves to feel they are involved in what happens but still retaining the Wizard as the one who pulls the strings...

About the hunter still. If the hunter gains the information from the GW she should be of the "classical" style eg. bringing down whoever she has targeted, a wolf or an innocent. It might also be possible to think that the GW first would like to keep her in shade about the other gifteds but if the hunter wishes to take another gifted down with her the GW could then override it (when it would be known to the hunter as well). That would indeed sound "realistic"

If both Wizards choose the same people during the Night that one would be turned a werewolf but be known to EW. That sounds good to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Nog, it looks good but terribly exhausting to read and decipher. I thought I'm going to die before I finish reading that Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll make a good mod after seeing the effort you put to it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That said it looks pretty straightforward to me that in the beginning of the game both the EW and the GW send the mod (and the sub-mods?) a list of 6 or something (depending on the number of gifteds we will give the GW in the beginning: I personally would be ready to give the GW more than one but more of that later) whom they wish to make wolves / gifteds. After that the mod checks the overlaps, makes a lottery if needed and deals the picks

This is the best idea of all of that.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The wizard should also be able to pass information to her minions as much as she wishes. That's something the Wizard and the sub-mod should then work out together (as to when the sub-mod can be online) as the authentic PMs should not be quoted but the sub-mod should alway paraphrase it so that the minions would not quess the identity of their Wizard if she doesn't want them to know it.

Not sure about this one. Now putting aside the effort of passing the information (imagine a sub-mod getting flow of information from a person like me), what if the sub-mod misinterpretates what the Wizard told him? And there may be importance in every word and the formulation of the Wizard, and this will be lost by the sub-mod's interpretation. I mean, what if the sub-mod ignores, or interpretates as less important something that the Wizard intended to be more important. We don't want it to become a Paper Telephone.

To the rest: good, good, only don't overcombinate the rules. I think the game looked good enough as it was, don't overstretch it (I'm referring to introducing more gifteds etc...).

I am sure there was another thing I wanted to mention, but I forgot it.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate

I thought I'm going to die before I finish reading that

Well, if you of all the people feel like that I guess there's not a lot of people reading and / or thinking about this...

Happily being able to play does not require one to know all the niceties of the game. In the end only the Wizards and the sub-mods need to have a clear conception of what to do and what is possible / allowed. And they should be volunteers as they were the last time.

No one should just state their wish to be a Wizard here or anywhere else in the 'downs but they should PM the mod eventually declaring their willingness.

Originally Posted by Legate

what if the sub-mod misinterpretates what the Wizard told him? And there may be importance in every word and the formulation of the Wizard, and this will be lost by the sub-mod's interpretation.

In this one I could see it as a natural possibility like the idea that in a really big village everyone does not have a chance of hearing everything all others are saying (not time to read all the posts that is)... So maybe the minions just didn't get the full picture of their Wizard's intentions if they were so finetuned? Narrationwise we could come up with an idea that makes that kind of scene possible... no problem with that. I think it more important for a Wizard to be able to decide herself whether she wishes to reveal her identity to her chosen ones.

Originally Posted by Legate

To the rest: good, good, only don't overcombinate the rules. I think the game looked good enough as it was, don't overstretch it (I'm referring to introducing more gifteds etc...).

I hope I'm not doing it. On the contrary I'd wish to see a few balancing acts to bring the GW and the village to a bit more competitive position and to make certain things a bit more fluent. So not overstraching but making it straighter and more even.

I can see that all the talk I made above may look like nitpicking and too thorough... but in the end when the game is played one needs clear rules to every situation and deciding those rules requires every thing and chance to be thought patiently beforehand (so that we don't make a same kind of blunder the first game suffered from just because the mod had to make a decision about an un-thought-of situation in a hurry).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, if you of all the people feel like that I guess there's not a lot of people reading and / or thinking about this...

I hope I'm not doing it. On the contrary I'd wish to see a few balancing acts to bring the GW and the village to a bit more competitive position and to make certain things a bit more fluent. So not overstraching but making it straighter and more even.

Well, the point is that I am not that much a kind of person who should read and reply to this - the most input should be made by the ones who played and experienced the first game for themselves and know what seemed balanced or unbalanced. My view is only theoretical and I'm saying only what I think; but lack the practical insight and personal experience.

In this one I could see it as a natural possibility like the idea that in a really big village everyone does not have a chance of hearing everything all others are saying (not time to read all the posts that is)... So maybe the minions just didn't get the full picture of their Wizard's intentions if they were so finetuned? Narrationwise we could come up with an idea that makes that kind of scene possible... no problem with that. I think it more important for a Wizard to be able to decide herself whether she wishes to reveal her identity to her chosen ones.

Yup, that's plausible. I like that.

I can see that all the talk I made above may look like nitpicking and too thorough... but in the end when the game is played one needs clear rules to every situation and deciding those rules requires every thing and chance to be thought patiently beforehand (so that we don't make a same kind of blunder the first game suffered from just because the mod had to make a decision about an un-thought-of situation in a hurry).

No way looking too nitpicky - you are doing a good job, as I said before - it's the best for the mod to have everything checked, if only for his own feeling of safety...