COMPASS & LOTR comparison

[Sauron the White]

I realize that people are expressing thier honest opinion about a future HOBBIT film and certainly have a right to it. After reading many of these posts over the last couple of weeks I do get a feeling that many here want a Jackson HOBBIT film and its follow-up to fail and fail badly. Several seem to be setting the table with a variety of expectations praying that the films bomb. Perhaps some see it as revenge for the super successful LOTR films that they themselves cannot come to appreciate. Some here seem to see Jackson as some type of public sinner or heretic and want him to pay for his transgressions.

Several posts even mention how business will not be very good due to various changes in the market but then seem to want it both ways saying that the film will only be a success if it dumbs down everything, panders to an audience of 16 year old American yahoos with 80 IQ's, and turns the HOBBIT into another chapter of the FRIDAY 13TH series.

People criticize Jacksons use of Gimli in LOTR - too much slapstick and too many crude bodily jokes. Fair enough. But now in davems post we get this

Another problem will be in expectations - fans of the LotR movies want Aragorn & Legolas doing their 'tricks', wheras, if the movies are at all faithful to the book, what they'll get is a sweet little Bilbo & a troop of comical Dwarves.

First of all, what "tricks" did Aragorn do? I realize that some objected to Legolas surfshield routine and the Mumak kill (I personally loved the latter and was indifferent to the former) but I do not know what either has to do with HOBBIT since neither character is in the book. But at the heart of this comment is the idea that in LOTR Gimli was unfairly used for humorous purposes while in HOBBIT mean old Jackson will make the movie so serious that all those funny Dwarves will not be able to do their usual vaudeville routines.

Please make up your mind.

I suspect - not expect, not predict, and certainy do not know for a fact - that Jackson will attempt to make parts of the HOBBIT a bit more serious in tone to make it consistent with LOTR as a franchise series. I also suspect we will see some Dwarven humor along the way. Humor is by far the hardest thing to do in films since everyone has such a different taste for it. Heavy dramatic moments pretty much work or they do not. Emotional love scenes either pull at the heart strings and make you cry or they do not. But humor is so varied and so different depending on the person, that it poses far different problems for a filmmaker. My grown children tell me that TALADEGA NIGHTS is a very funny movie. I find it terrible and there is barely a chuckle in the entire film. I found BORAT to be completely hysterical while others look at each other with mystified looks upon their frowning faces not getting it at all. Who is to say what humor works and what does not? But rest assured, there will probably be Dwarven humor in HOBBIT.

I too hope for some of the HOBBITS sweetness and lighter moments to be a part of the film. I dearly hope so. And I do not think I will be let down in that hope. Just as their were many sweet moments in the LOTR films, that element will be there.

[Mister Underhill]

I gotta pipe in here just to keep things honest. Let's not exaggerate the international success of Compass. They'll probably end up with about $300M if it performs very well in Japan once it finally opens there. The league they're playing in, a bonafide international smash is like $500M plus. On the other hand, ~$70M domestic is disappointing, but hardly a complete flop.

Stardust didn't break the bank overseas either -- just under $100M. Elizabeth: The Golden Age is Oscar bait, not the kind of movie meant to do big business here or overseas. Within the past decade, LotR, Harry Potter, and Narnia have all done, as Variety would say, boffo box office domestically, and mid-range fantasy fare like Eragon and Bridge to Terabithia and the like have performed respectably.

I'd even lump in the bank-breaking Pirates franchise as another fantasy franchise that's done well. It has all the elements -- swords and sorcery, weird monsters, and so on.

I just don't see any real evidence for a sea-change in American appetite for fantasy, nor a contrasting ravenous appetite for "sophisticated" fantasy overseas.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I realize that people are expressing thier honest opinion about a future HOBBIT film and certainly have a right to it. After reading many of these posts over the last couple of weeks I do get a feeling that many here want a Jackson HOBBIT film and its follow-up to fail and fail badly.

Nope. As I said, & I think King Kong confirms this, whenever Jackson & co leave Tolkien's story line & characterisations behind & do their own thing they mess up. So, if they attempt to re-write TH in the style of LotR - something Tolkien himself tried & failed to do - they will inevitably get it wrong. And the thought of them taking a few scattered references from Appendix B & knocking up a movie doesn't bear thinking about. This would be the worst kind of fan-fic - can you really imagine Jackson, his missus & her best mate writing something that is supposed to equal Tolkien's carefully crafted masterpieces? You only have to listen to their mostly inane comments on the commentary tracks, where they offer their 'insights' into Tolkien's work to realise that they don't know what they're talking about - & their reasons for changing the storyline, & how they think their own changes 'improve' on the book: "We needed to split up Frodo & Sam to increase the dramatic tension" etc are enough to confirm that when they do get absolute control over a M-e storyline its going to be truly dreadful.RAynor Unwin once referred to Tolkien as a 'ferocious intellect', & he rightly deserves the title genius. The idea that this trio could create something equivalent to his work is the worst kind of bad joke, & nothing but an insult. The Hobbit movie may be saved - if there's enough of Tolkien's original work on screen. Nothing could possibly save the sequel.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

So, if they attempt to re-write TH in the style of LotR - something Tolkien himself tried & failed to do - they will inevitably get it wrong.

JRRT attempted this rewrite in 1960 when he was 68 years old. From what I have read about these years for JRRT as a writer, they were not very productive compared to his earlier decades of the Nineteen Twenties, Thirties and Forties. Tolkien seemed to lose the ability to finish anything of substance and instead busied himself with constant tending to notes, rewriting of the same, and laboring over minor issues with previous writings.

You are assuming that since JRRT himself could not reform the HOBBIT into something more consistent with LOTR then nobody could. Given his age and deterioration of work habits, I think the case could well be made that those two factors were as much of a problem as the basic inability of anyone to complete that task.

In the past, I have riduculed some here for worshipping at the altar of JRRT treating him and his works as if they were Holy Writ. And, predictably, I am ridiculed in turn with stiff and strong denials of such a characterization. But at the heart of this is the inablity of some here to acknowledge that JRRT was a human being whose work - as great as it is - is not perfect. Someday, someone, somehow could come along and improve upon it.

The fact is this, there were things in the film that did improve upon the story of Middle-earth and presented it better. I realize that a statement like that causes heads to shake in firm denial and the bonfires are at ready to administer justice to the heretic. But others besides this humble writer have posted on many sites over the past six years explaining points in the film that they believed were improved upon over the book.

Everyone has their own opinion and those who think the book, or a part or two of it, were made better have just as much right as anyone else to that viewpoint.

It is possible that somebody could come along and do to THE HOBBIT what JRRT himself could not finish at age 68. And the people to do it could well be screenwriters for THE HOBBIT despite this

The idea that this trio could create something equivalent to his work is the worst kind of bad joke, & nothing but an insult.

No insult. Just facing the fact that Tolkien was a human whose work, like all humans, was not perfect and could be improved upon, if only for a little.

I find it interesting that some here grasp at straws to boost the take of a film like COMPASS - which still has not earned a profit - while attempting to tar KING KONG. KONG actually took in $550 million dollars US on a budget of $207 million. It earned a profit long before and DVD sales or considering other ancillary marketing deals which were considerable.

I stand ready for the fires of justice.

[davem]

These 'writers' actually came up with the line 'Even the smallest person can change the course of the future,' which is very possibly the most inane statement in any movie I can think of, & then placed it in the mouth of one of the High Elves - a Noldor who had seen the light of the Trees & had lived millenia in Middle-earth. I can only suggest a reading of Shippey's comments on Tolkien's use of archaism. The line is dumb, & makes Galadriel sound like a fifth rate pop psychologist rather than High Queen of the Elves in Middle-earth. I doubt JRR Tolkien would have produced a line like that if he'd ended up completely senile.

And the idea that this trio of hacks could achieve something that Tolkien himself could not is plainly ridiculous.

[Sauron the White]

Regardless of the worth or unworthiness of a single line in the film, the fact is still that JRRT was a human whose work is not perfect. It can be improved upon. Your entire case is based on the misbelief that if JRRT could not do it, then nobody could. That is wrong from the start. Anyones work can be improved upon for they are not gods and their work is not divine.

You have a right to your opinion and so do others who know something about such things. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences bestowed the Award for Best Adapted Screenplay to the group that you hold in disdain. So your opinion is not without debate.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Regardless of the worth or unworthiness of a single line in the film, the fact is still that JRRT was a human whose work is not perfect. It can be improved upon. Your entire case is based on the misbelief that if JRRT could not do it, then nobody could. That is wrong from the start. Anyones work can be improved upon for they are not gods and their work is not divine.

Its not about the line - its about the character. You cannot have a character who has, up to that point, used a highly archaic speech pattern (taken in the main straight from Tolkien) suddenly change & start using a modern speech pattern - and why? Because one of them will seem fake. Either Galadriel (in the movie) has been 'putting on' the archaic speech up to that point & suddenly begins to speak 'colloquially' - which calls into question her character (what game has she been playing up to then?), or her natural speech is archaic & she is patronising Frodo by attempting to speak on his level. The point that the 'writers' have missed is that one's speech patterns & turns of phrase reflect the way one thinks, one's whole life experience. Anyone who comes out with a line like that is not wise & insightful - they are simply thick. Elrond's words "Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." would have worked. One can only suppose the 'writers' couldn't work out what they meant.

Plus, to have her go from 'roaring seagreen hellhag' (in Brian Rosebury's wonderful phrase) to spouting sub Oprah psycho-babble makes the whole scene a joke, & destroys her character completely.

I wouldn't argue that no-one could improve on Tolkien's work, hust that a trio of barely literate hacks could.

You have a right to your opinion and so do others who know something about such things. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences bestowed the Award for Best Adapted Screenplay to the group that you hold in disdain. So your opinion is not without debate.

And how many of those time servers have actually read LotR?

[Sauron the White]

davem ... I mentioned the honor ofthe Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay for ROTK and you then asked

And how many of those time servers have actually read LotR?

Perhaps it has been a long day, BUT .... the AA was not given for the book LOTR. It was given for the adaption of the book to the screen as a screenplay. You seem to be laboring a gross misunderstanding of the nature of the award and what it is for. I, and I am sure that you also, would have absolutely no idea how many Academy members have read LOTR. It could be many, it could be few, it could be all, it could be none. Such a question serves no purpose since it can not be answered with any authority.

I do not remember anyone in the theater screaming at the awful nature of having Galadriel deliver that line. I do not remember any critic in the print media or broadcast media pointing out problems with that line as you seem to feel there are. Seems to me you are picking at a very tiny piece of lint that nobody else notices or even cares about. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

But when it comes to ripping on the films, what else is new?