"People do not decide to become extraordinary....

[Lord Gothmog]

I am not sure it makes him less of a hero - at least not in my eyes.

Nor it would seem in the eyes of Tolkien.

From the ever-quoted letter 131 to Milton Waldman.

I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty.

In the case of Aragorn and others of similar stature, they did have a motivation to "decide to accomplish extraordinary things." This could be seen as being "Born to a high destiny", or simply wanting to "Live up to the stories of their forefathers". But in the case of Frodo he was thrust into the role of a "Hero" by accident while Sam ignored all other things in his life for the simple task of 'helping his Beloved Master' (I use the term Master in the same way that it is done in the book, that of employer and Master of the House.) In so doing, he became a greater hero.

[Lalwendë]

Aragorn was motivated by the possibility of becoming King, a sense of duty, the prize of winning his fair maiden, any number of things. Sam was motivated because he loved his friend, and that's as much motivation as anyone needs.

I like this idea, Mithalwen, maybe you could compare Sam to Sherpa Tensing? And it's odd (to me, at any rate...) how the achievement of conquering Everest came in the same decade as Lord of the Rings...

I'm sure if you decide to "become extraordinary" then everyone would laugh at you for being terribly presumptuous and maybe a little bit pretentious and would secretly be crossing their fingers that you fall flat on your face. Or is this just an English thing?

[smeagollives]

I think Tolkien talked about the "enoblement of ignoble" one times. He said every one of us would be able to do great deeds. You just must be willing to make the right choices when confronted with it.

@Lalwendë: Well i am from Germany... and i think i am special (even extraordinary)... just as everybody else is. I think most people accomplished a thing or two in their lives which they can be proud of.

I think it is a good thing to decide to become extraordinary. You mustn't be a hero, just extraordinary your own way.

You english love understatement, don't you? I think you do not like big words.

[Mithalwen]

I am sorry that I have neglected this thread - I am afraid work and domestic duties have been taking priority.

Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day".

What I am sure Tolkien, and Sir Edmund, would have deplored is the cult of vacuous fame - people seeking fame for its own sake in a shameless fashion. Look at the people who fill "celebrity" magazines - apart from the sports people who are genuinely talented in their field it is virtually a freak show.

Sam does not set out to be famous though he is not ignorant of fame. He is an admirable character - but and ordinary hobbit. He is achievement is the result of his determination to stick with his master. It is not blind devotion - he knows the score and carries on anyway. He is " an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated". Even Frodo, who is unusual according to the norms of his kind, does not set out to be extraordinary though it is an extraordinary thing he does.

There are a few characters in Tolkien who do set out to be extra ordinary in the "Look at me" kind of way Lal was suggesting. They don't generally make good ends.

[Boromir88]

Just poking my head in Mith to point out you might be interested in reading this thread (Small hand do them because they must...)

What I particularly like is this bit from Tolkien's Letter to Milton Waldman:

A moral of the whole is the obvious one that without the high and noble, the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless.

You need Aragorn, Boromir, Glorfindel and those "noble" warriors to do the grunt work and inspirational leadership. Yet you think those guys are going to get their nice clothes dirty and take a ring into Mordor and go through extreme mental/physical pain? Most likely not...so that means it's up to the 'smaller' ones of the world.

I think this correlation also exists with the Villain and his servants. The villains that strive to be Dark Lords (Sauron, Saruman) are the guys who have control over their servants (Orcs, Grima). Without the servants the Dark Lords wouldn't be able to get much done. Yet, without the Dark Lord the servants are lost and go insane.

Like the Orcs:

The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die,...~The Field of Cormallen

There is a great visual comparison made between the Orcs reacting to Sauron's destruction as ants to the loss of their queen.

And Grima:

at that something snapped; suddenly Wormtounge rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran of down the lane. Before Frodo could recover or speak a word, three Hobbit bows twanged and Wormtounge fell dead.~Scouring of the Shire

Excellent thread, Mith.

[smeagollives]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day".

I see. I am sorry. English is not my native language.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm sure if you decide to "become extraordinary" then everyone would laugh at you for being terribly presumptuous and maybe a little bit pretentious and would secretly be crossing their fingers that you fall flat on your face. Or is this just an English thing?

I suppose it may be an English thing. In the US, it's pretty much accepted (and expected) that everyone wants to "become extraordinary". If one doesn't, one is seen as kind of pathetic and boring...
(I, of course, already am extraordinary. )

But, trying to remain somewhat on-topic, I'll add that Sam's humility, and the fact that his upward-mobility is not planned, make him a deeply un-American character. Which is, in my book, a good thing. (Actually, one of the main things that always strikes me as wonderfully different about Europe is that people there don't seem to be quite as consumed with insatiable ambition as Americans are.)

[Rikae]

I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

I second that! I highly doubt that Aragorn ever thought "Hm. I think I should do something to make people think I'm extraordinary. Why not travel to Orodruin while protecting the Ring?"

I think it's more realistic that he felt this kind of duty fall on his head like it did on Bilbo's when he left without a handkerchief, and on Frodo's when he found out what his ring really was and what responsibility he had. And the higher the duty, the more "extraordinary" a person is considered to be.

And IMO, the only way to become a "fantastic hero" is to start off as the most "ordinary chap" and do something un-ordinary.

[Mithalwen]

No but Aragorn was born to a high fate - such a high one that it was concealed from him until he reached adulthood - though whether to give him a "normal" childhood (if that is even a relevant concept if you are a mortal child being raised among elflords - or to try to prevent him becoming a bumptious little brat is unknowm. Aragorn is not an ordinary man and is acutely aware of his destiny - he carries the brioken sword around with him.. impractical but highly symbolic. Sam is a gardner and his motivation simpler.

[Galadriel55]

Also true. But still, had it been up to him, I think Aragorn would rather have been ordinary than go through all that gruesome war business. But he didn't have a choice. As you said, he was pre-destined.