Them Dwarven folk.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think the idea that they purchased all (or even the major deal of) their food is quite impossible. Roughly generalised, to be selfsupporting is the ideal of every great kingdom, and I can see it apply to dwarves much better than any humans or elves.

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.

Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food-supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves.

And whenever Dwarves were isolated from Elves and Men, they hunted animals and gathered wild roots instead of farming or herding. Example: the Petty Dwarves.

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding? They certainly didn't seem to have much harmony with nature.

They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life.

[Alfirin]

Maybe Terry Prachett is right and dwarves really do have a fondness for eating rat.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by zxcbvn

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.

I feel like arguing. Because even though the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain did - just as the quote says - get their food from their neighbours, that probably isn't how it goes with Dwarves of other places. Not all of them had such exceptionally warm relationships with their neighbours.

And as to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains - Shire is very far away to be the main source of food and I really can't see there being much of friendly communication between the Elves and the Dwarves of the Lindon area. It makes sense they had some communication and trade, but it'd be very odd if the Dwarves got most of their food from the Elves - as the two races didn't like each other very much in late times.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I feel like arguing.

That's what makes discussions fun. it'd be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything.

Because even though the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain did - just as the quote says - get their food from their neighbours, that probably isn't how it goes with Dwarves of other places. Not all of them had such exceptionally warm relationships with their neighbours.

Read the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'. Whenever the two races lived close to each other Men had the role of providing food and perishables and Dwarves provided tools, weapons etc.

And as to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains - Shire is very far away to be the main source of food and I really can't see there being much of friendly communication between the Elves and the Dwarves of the Lindon area. It makes sense they had some communication and trade, but it'd be very odd if the Dwarves got most of their food from the Elves - as the two races didn't like each other very much in late times.

The Dwarves may not be very friendly with the Elves but they weren't enemies either. More like neutral. Also, in the Silmarillion it says that though relations between the Dwarves and Elves remained cool, there was a lot of trade between them and both sides profited greatly.

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

That's what makes discussions fun. it'd be a boring world if everybody agreed on everything.

Agreed.

Read the essay 'Of Dwarves and Men'.

I have read it, but I don't definitely know it by heart.

Whenever the two races lived close to each other Men had the role of providing food and perishables and Dwarves provided tools, weapons etc.

But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.

The Dwarves may not be very friendly with the Elves but they weren't enemies either. More like neutral. Also, in the Silmarillion it says that though relations between the Dwarves and Elves remained cool, there was a lot of trade between them and both sides profited greatly.

I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said?

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?

I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade. Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But the Dwarves of the Iron Hills or the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, they didn't have human neighbours - or did they? No big organised settlements, at least.

How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills. And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm not questioning the fact, but I'd like to look at it myself. Where is that said?

Here.

Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; Of the Sindar

And here.

And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffic into Beleriand. But though either people loved skill and were eager to learn, no great love was there between them; for the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, and Caranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his people followed their lord. Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit; Of the Return of the Noldor

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I did not mean to say it was too far way for trade, rather that it was too far away for significant regular food supply trade.

Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.

There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard,...The Appendices

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Besides, if there would have been a considerable amount of Dwarven money and/or goods coming to the Shire this way, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

The Dwarves did frequently pass through places like the Shire and Bree-land. And as some poster on this same thread said before they occasionally lent their expertise in construction and road-building.

That stage, however, belonged to the early days of the Shire,
and hobbit-building had long since been altered, improved by devices, learned from Dwarves, or discovered by themselves.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Zxcbvn

How do you know? Tolkien never wrote anything about the Dwarf-mansions of the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills other than the fact that they existed. It wouldn't be implausible to assume that there were atleast some villages of Northmen near the Iron Hills.

No, it wouldn't be implausible, I agree, but I think you're misunderstanding me. I said "no big settlemetns, at least". That does not discount small villages.

And as for the Blue Mtns, they were living right next to the Noldor and Sindar in Lindon.

Yes - and the HoME quote only referred to Dwarves and Humans.

As to the qoutes you provided, they are indeed very familiar to me, but I think they - at least the latter one - only refer to the First Age. So they're useless when arguing about the Third Age (which we're discussing, right? ).

Why not? There was a great deal of traffic passing through the old Dwarf-roads, which happened to pass through the Shire.

I know. But it takes time to go from the Shire to the Blue Mountains, and food doesn't stay good for a long time (assuming there were no preservatives in M-E ). Of course the Dwarves could just buy flour and dried meat & fruits and other goods that last a bit longer and eat only that, but I can't see them going on such an ascetic diet.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Actually they DID purchase all their food supplies. Atleast whenever there were communities of Elves or Men nearby.

That's not logical. The dwarves were intelligent enough to realise what happens if a war breaks out or there's some other catastrophe which stops trade. And even if Gimli could set Galadriel's hairs in imperishable crystal, I doubt the dwarves were able to preserve food in the same way.
No, they had to be able to produce food also on their own.

Originally Posted by zxc

And whenever Dwarves were isolated from Elves and Men, they hunted animals and gathered wild roots instead of farming or herding. Example: the Petty Dwarves.

Maybe small families and communities did, but that's not enough to feed a considerable sized society.

Originally Posted by zxc

Maybe they were just poor at farming and herding? They certainly didn't seem to have much harmony with nature.

So maybe they were the ones who developed fertilizers and industrial agriculture? To Tolkien's view of things that would probably mean about the same as "not much harmony with nature."

Originally Posted by HoME XII

Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and landtillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers &tc.

I believe this is what you meant. However, I fail to see it says trade with Men was the only source of food for dwarves. Rather, I think it profited Men most to sell food- and that most of the food the dwarves bought came from Men.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Maybe Terry Prachett is right and dwarves really do have a fondness for eating rat.

Originally Posted by zxc

And as for the Shire being too far way for trade, how do you think the Dwarves knew of pipe weed?

Smoking of pipe-weed spread among Dwarves from Bree, says the Prologue. I don't remember what else has been said about pipe-weed, but it's hard to believe it grows only near the Shire, so trade isn't necessarily needed for the dwarves to get it.

**

And now that I think it, mushroom farming sounds even more and more probable. A union between Aulë and Yavanna- things that grow underground and are eaten by Aulë's folk. How romantic.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Smoking of pipe-weed spread among Dwarves from Bree, says the Prologue. I don't remember what else has been said about pipe-weed, but it's hard to believe it grows only near the Shire, so trade isn't necessarily needed for the dwarves to get it.

Bree is even farther from the Blue Mountains than the Shire. And it's unlikely that the Dwarves grew it themselves, as it needed open spaces and lots of sunlight. And the Elves didn't smoke, so they wouldn't grow it either. So trade it is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Lommy brings up a good point - fresh food doesn't keep long, so if Dwarves bought it from others, the producers would need to live fairly close to them. After all, there were no refrigerators nor trucks with freezer compartments in Middle-earth!

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Pipeweed is a different matter - it could be kept for a considerable time and was transported in barrels. The fact that Dwarves had pipeweed would indicate that they did come to or near the Shire occasionally, but not necessarily frequently.

They did - one should not forget the fact that curious Hobbits got most of their news of the big world from Dwarves.

[Kuruharan]

For a little more information on this system and an explaination of how it could go horribly wrong look here.

[MaultheStoor]

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by MaultheStoor

if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

Terry Pratchett definitely had fun with this...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by MaultheStoor

There are no Dwarf women in Lord of the Rings Online. Hmmm...if Dwarven women are so alike to dwarven men, does that mean that you could go on a date with a Dwarf and not know whether they were male or female?!? Creepy...

As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

As a matter of fact, all dwarves are bisexual. It doesn't matter whether a dwarf lives her/his life with a man or a woman, because dwarf children sprout from holes in the ground anyway.

Seriously, though, at least dwarves themselves should be able to distinguish males from females even if the other races couldn't do that.

I should certainly hope so!